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What happens when you believe God loves you, but deep down, you still feel like you have to earn it?
For many of us, the way we experienced love growing up shapes the way we relate to God. We may know the right things about his love, yet find ourselves striving to be good enough, serve enough, or do enough to deserve it.
In today's conversation, Dr. Alison is joined by beloved author and speaker Stasi Eldredge, whose new book, The Ladder of Love, explores the many ways Scripture invites us into a deeper, more intimate relationship with God.
We explore:
*How your childhood experiences shape the way you see God
*Why knowing you're loved and feeling loved can be so different
*7 surprising ways Scripture describes our relationship with God
*What it looks like to grow closer to God in everyday life
*What Stasi wishes she'd known about God's love years ago
Stasi shares her own remarkable journey—from encountering Jesus as a young woman, to struggling with depression and wounds from her childhood, to discovering a relationship with God as Father that transformed how she understood herself and his love.
About Stasi Eldredge:
Stasi Eldredge is an author and speaker passionate about helping women experience the goodness of God and the transforming love of Jesus. With a background in sociology and decades of ministry experience spanning youth, women, children, and crisis pregnancy support, she is dedicated to helping others grow deeper in their faith and discover the freedom found in Christ.
More Resources:
Get Stasi’s new book: Ladder of Love.
Learn more about Stasi Eldredge here.
Get exclusive access to the first 2 chapters of Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul.
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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Transcript
For me, love was earned. You looked a certain way, behaved a certain way,
performed a certain way, and then you had approval. And I thought, I'm not really interested in God
as my father. But then hearing their tones of voice, I really said, I want to know you. I want to
know you like this. So I actually had the opportunity to go away by myself with the intent purpose
to come to know him as my father. And I came back a changed woman. I told Jesus,
I still love you, but I've really got a thing for your dad. The wounds I've received, the pain I
have suffered has actually warped my perception of who God is. I want to learn you rightly.
He wants that as well. Nothing is out of his reach and he's for you. I know the work you do and
then hopefully the work I'm doing as well is to give people handrails on how to step forward,
to walk with God in... do the excavation? How have I learned him wrong? And then to restore us and
begin to reveal himself to us as he really is. That is a journey worth taking.
Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's deep dive episode of The Best of You. I'm so thrilled
you're here with me today for this conversation. It's with Stacey Eldridge,
and I found this conversation to just be incredibly warm and uplifting and hopeful.
And as I thought about this episode and this new book that we're going to talk about today, I
thought about how we often have these specific ways that we might imagine God in our lives,
and we might not even be aware of it. Sometimes we might see God,
or at least a part of us might see God primarily as someone to obey. A part of us might see God as
primarily the person we go to for help when we're in need, when we need comfort, when we need
reassurance, when we need wisdom. Other parts of us might see God as someone primarily out there,
someone to worship, someone who is more transcendent, someone to revere.
We might see God at times as a friend, as a close friend, as a confidant,
as someone we share all of our secrets with. We might see God as a savior, as a teacher,
as a shepherd. There are so many different ways that we see God. Sometimes we're aware of these
ways, sometimes we're not. And of course, all of these different ways of relating to God,
of imagining God, of being with God can be true and helpful and good. But sometimes I wonder if
part of spiritual maturity includes allowing our understanding of how we relate to God to become
bigger and even more layered over time. And part of it is recognizing that we can relate to God in
different ways at different times and that different parts of us might have different ways of
understanding God and that we can hold all of those things in truth and intention.
And it makes our relationship with God even more rich, even more layered,
even more robust. As I was thinking about all these different ways we have to understand this idea
of love, what love feels like, how we relate to love, I was thinking about all these different
relationships, especially as I was writing The Secure Soul and thinking about attachment as this
form of connectedness that's so important to the health of our souls. Again, when we think about
attachment, we think about a parent, right? And a good parent gives us a window into love.
but also transcends who that parent is. That window that a parent gives us into love points us to
capital L love, right? God, to divine love, to the God who is behind that relationship.
Or a trusted friend, someone who comes in and really earns our trust, who's been with us through
thick and thin, gives us another understanding of love, another embodied glimpse of what love feels
like. This is what it feels like when I feel safe, when I can trust. someone, when I know someone
has my back, this person, this friend has given me that sense of what love is like. And that tells
me something about God or a wise mentor or counselor gives us something even a little bit
different, right? Maybe they're not in our immediate sphere, but they give us wisdom because they
can see us with objectivity. They have some perspective that we don't have and they impart that
wisdom to us and it can feel so good within our soul and so helpful within our. soul to have that
trusted advisor who can see the bigger picture a little beyond what we can see.
And that, again, gives us another glimpse of capital L love, of God's love, of what God's love is
like. And then sometimes I even think about another category, a healthy leader, maybe even a boss,
maybe a professional mentor, maybe somebody who enters into our vocational lives and maybe guides
us with wisdom. I recently was at a conference. retreat where I met these amazing leaders who are
trying to figure out how to bring their faith into the workplace, not necessarily speaking out the
gospel with words, but trying to show up as just a healthy example of what a leader is like.
Someone who cares for the people that he or she employs and someone who sees the people who work
for him or who work for her, not just as transactions, right? But as real people and someone who's
trying to create a world. that is healthy and inspires development and inspires care and inspires
stewardship and is good not only for the person who's working there, but good for the whole culture
or community. And I was just amazed by these leaders. I don't think some of us have tasted even
just a healthy boss like that, right? Someone who really cares about the whole person, even as that
boss is trying to create a healthy culture that produces good work. And again,
even that kind of relationship. can give us a glimpse into what God is like,
right? What God's love is like. God wants us to be healthy in every sphere of our life.
And God cares about our lives and our souls on so many different levels. And then I think about
that most intimate relationship that we might have with a spouse or a partner or a significant
other, where we experience love in its most intimate form, where there's that dance of togetherness
and apartness, right? Where we're aligned, we're partnered together in an intimate way,
but we also retain some of our own individual identity. And I think of that as a powerful example
of this capital L love of God's. And then I think about how these categories,
these different types of relationships, like parent, like friend, like beloved, like a boss even,
or a leader, how these words carry a history for us. They carry types of relationships we've
actually lived. And some of these relationships have been safe. They've shaped us in a healthy way.
They've allowed us to glimpse God's love as how God's love actually is, but how others haven't been
so safe. created a situation in which it's hard for us to trust a particular type of relationship.
And it's exactly this picture that intrigued me about Stacey's newest book.
It's called The Ladder of Love, and it's an invitation to explore the many ways scripture describes
closeness with God. And Stacey isn't talking about this ladder as an achievement system,
right, as a way to get closer to God, but more as this metaphor for an ever-deepening
relationship. Stacey Eldridge is a best-selling author, a speaker, and co-founder of Wild at
Heart with her husband, John Eldridge. Her books include Captivating, Becoming Myself,
and Defiant Joy, and her newest book, that we're going to discuss today is called The Ladder of
Love, A Pathway to Emotional Healing and Spiritual Intimacy with Jesus.
I just found Stacey to be so refreshing and honest and real, and I really loved this idea of
thinking about the different ways that we relate to God, some that we may have closed off,
some that we may want to draw in as a tool for us to think about what it means to stay close to
Jesus. Please enjoy my conversation with Stacey.
You
know, you've just had such an incredible impact on so many people.
And I would love, before we kind of dive into this new book, just to hear who was Jesus to you when
you first began to follow him? And how is that different from who he is to you now?
Oh, that's such a good question. So I became a full-on follower of Christ when I was 21 years old
at back college. And he saved me.
That was one of those ones where you can picture the person in the ocean at the bottom and he
reaches down and saves you. I was really at the end of my rope with the person I had become,
the things I was doing, the things I had done.
Really lost, really involved in the drug culture, had been in that for a very long time. And then
what happened was John, my husband, and I were friends all through high school.
And I had gotten together with him and he had become a Christian, which was shocking, which was
like, what? So this was not who he was in high school either. Oh, heavens no.
Neither of you. Oh, no, no, no, no. You were not voted the most likely to become ministers of the
gospel in your high school yearbook. Quite the opposite. He was kind of an evangelist to get people
to not believe in God. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. He had no faith upbringing at all. There was
nothing. But as he got older, he began to seek. And he began seeking in all the wrong places.
And Jesus came. And revealed himself to him. So we were both kind of seeking at the same time.
But we lived in different cities about two and a half hours from each other. And he had become a
Christian. And I was like, tell me everything. So you were friends.
You weren't dating? No, we weren't dating. We were friends. We'd been friends for like, I met him
when I was 16. He was 15. Yeah, so I'd known him for about six years. But we weren't dating.
I went back to college in San Diego, and I brought a family Bible with me.
And then one night at the end of my rope, I opened it.
And I opened it to Matthew 11, 28. That's what my eyes fell on. Come to me,
all you who are weary, and I will give you rest. And I literally fell on the ground,
Allison, and said, I'm weary. That was my salvation prayer. That's amazing.
I was in. I was in. He rescued me immediately from a couple of addictions.
Not everything, as we know. We have to walk out our story. But I was committed.
I wanted this God. And so I joined a church. I got in a discipleship group.
I learned Bible studies. I was 100% in. Serious about it.
And that was it. I lost all of my friends. And I just dove in. And he was first center behind last
in between. He was he was everything to me. I started in ministry really quickly,
as people do when they're young and started going to a great church.
Yep. I want to serve him. I want to go. So what happened to me?
was I kind of shifted from just being in awe and gratitude and love with him to thinking I had to
earn it. And I shifted over to, and I think I was taught this,
I think a lot of people are taught this, that what God really wanted was my duty and my obedience.
So it was obligation. And I went, okay. If that's what he wants and that's what I'm going to do.
And there would be women that would speak at the church or come and tell their testimony. And I
literally called it the parade of the perfect later. Because what they presented, right?
It was, I have my life together. Be like me and you too can have your life together.
Well, I couldn't. I knew my inner story. And also I'm about 15 years into my walk with Christ now.
I have not addressed at that point any of my childhood wounds or my teenage wounds or my young.
I hadn't gone there, but they were starting to surface and make themselves know. Yeah.
So the Christianity that I was living, it wasn't enough. It wasn't.
Did you hit a breaking point?
Absolutely. I did. I did. And I also thought if I start to cry,
I will never stop. So I was terrified of starting to cry.
I was terrified of pain. But it propelled me into counseling,
seeking a good Christian counselor. And the power of that, having somebody else.
validate my pain my story of my life hold it hold it up to someone else's live eyes to go that oh
that actually isn't good that wasn't or it wasn't supposed to be like that or what did you come to
believe about yourself as a result of that because our marriage was really in a crisis point we had
three young children and it was hard heart and i was not i Clearly,
I wasn't the mom I wanted to be. I didn't have the resources or the stamina. And I was really
struggling with depression. And I did need help. And God brought this incredible woman into my life
to help walk me through and begin me on a healing journey that continues. Yeah.
Did you? Was there a moment, Stacey? Because, again, I want to. this, the ladder of love,
you know, there's such a beautiful way that you are inviting us, even just with what you said.
That's why I want to get to your story a little bit out of that carrot holding God that we might
even know theologically isn't correct, but it's what some, how we've internalized to this,
this, this God of love who just wants to know us more deeply and deeply.
Was there a moment or a,
When you realized, right, what I know or believe about God's love is not what I'm experiencing it.
When that became conscious, did that kind of happen through therapy bit by bit? Or was there kind
of a realization moment? What was that like for you? I think what it was for me was listening to my
friends pray. When I prayed, I prayed to Jesus, Jesus, and in Jesus' name,
Jesus. When they prayed, they prayed to Father. Father,
da-da-da-da-da. Some of them prayed to Papa or Abba. And I'm going, what is that?
And why are they doing that? Why aren't they praying to Jesus? And what happened was I realized I
don't know God as my Father. The way they're talking, the tone of voice they're using.
I don't know him like that. And I wanted to. And that's really when I realized that it was true,
that what you learn about what a father is, you do learn from your earthly father. You really do.
And we all need to do some excavating. Where have we learned him wrong? And what were some of the
messages that came with the wounds that we all received? Nobody gets out of this thing unscathed.
And to hold them up to the love of God. So for me, Love was earned.
You looked a certain way, behaved a certain way, performed a certain way, and then you had
approval. Yeah. And my father was also very capricious. He had rage issues and he suffered without
medication and with bipolar disorder for many years. So you just never knew what was going to go
on. And I thought, I'm not really interested in God as my father. Right.
But then hearing their tones of voice, I really said, I want to know you. I want to know you like
this. So I actually had the opportunity to go away by myself for two weeks with the intent purpose
to come to know him as my father. And I came back a changed woman,
completely changed. I told Jesus, I still love you, but I've really got a thing for your dad.
I'm going to the other part of the Trinity now. That's right. That's right. We're good. I hope you
don't mind. And of course he didn't mind. He's like, yeah, I was wanting you to know him, you know,
and he's just like me as a matter of fact. So just, just having this shift and it was a subtle,
slow realization as well that when the things that I was doing. Out of,
I thought, a good heart in serving him and in volunteering and doing the things I was doing, I
realized I was doing those things because I thought he would like me better. And then I was trying
to earn something versus just responding out of love for what I already possessed.
I couldn't make him love me any more than he already did. And because I was so loved,
that being what propelled me to want to love him back. Yeah. So how did you,
so you said you went away for two weeks. I did. I talk about this too. You know, you want to, you
are beloved. So you work from that place, not for that. Yes. Which is a huge distinction,
but get it. And it makes sense logically, but getting from point A to point B, you know,
it sounds like you, you became aware. Oh, the idea of God, father, God is,
that is a problem. Yeah, I need to address that. So then what did you do? How did you go into that?
Could you share a little bit of what that was like for you? For me, I ended up going to the coast
of Oregon to a little Airbnb. I'd never been there before, but it was May and there was ocean and
that was alluring. I brought with me Cynthia Gunther's book, Safe in the Father's Heart.
And I slowly, slowly read through it.
I use the pronoun we because we did things. We went on an adventure every other day.
One day we'd stay home. And we being you and God the Father.
Yep. How interesting. Yeah. And I had brought worship sets with me.
I was free to be tired. I remember taking my first nap before I'd even gotten out of bed.
I was so happy to have a break from my life and just have the rest and the time to go,
show me who you are, really. And what he ended up doing was showing me how loved I am that blew me
away. One of the things he did, God gives me heart rocks. Often,
like little shapes of hearts in a rock or in a cloud or a little torn piece of paper. And it's just
a little, I love you. I see you in this moment. And I'll have times when I don't see one for
months. And I'll have times when I see one at every step. Well, on this trip to the Oregon coast,
they were having this weird phenomenon. They called them blue sailors. things,
these creatures that are out at the sea, but there was some strong wind and some surf, some tides
that brought them all in. These blue little round oval things. They were pretty. You couldn't touch
them. They felt like jellyfish. But there was also white little speckled things around because when
they dried, they turned white. And I think it was about my second to last day walking on the beach
that I noticed the millions of white things I was surrounded with were all in the shape of a heart.
All of them. Yeah. And I just, I mean, what?
Burst out laughing? Like I knew it was from him and that he wanted me to know, I don't just love
you. I love you. Then I went for this continuing on this walk and I rounded a bend and there was,
the Oregon coast has these huge stones in the water. Come around the bend, there's a huge stone
with a perfect heart in the middle of it. It was amazing. And it was in that place of choosing.
to believe you do love me and having that settle something in my heart that he also invited me to
pray. And I knew, I knew that whatever I prayed for was a yes.
So I just dove in to his heart and just like, what, what do you want me to pray?
That was so great. It was so great. And I came back and I remember being with my daughter-in-law
and her saying, I've never seen you like this before. You're just you're just like in a new way lit
up. I am. I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's powerful.
I want to it's kind of bringing us to the progression in the book.
Right. Because I'm also guessing there was a timeliness, a fullness of time to those two weeks
where you'd even just in the little bit of little. overview of your story you've given us there,
you may not have been able to experience God in that way earlier. Not until then.
Right. Right. And, and, and this is what you kind of talk about. There's a progression, this ladder
that isn't about climbing. It's just sort of a,
and you give us these, these, these different kind of the clay, the sheep. the servant,
the child, the sibling, the friend, the bride, right? So you're kind of giving us a taste of the
child. You know, you're kind of giving us a taste of, but when you look back over your own life,
how do you kind of see like how, even when you were saying like, I had to start therapy and that
was, that was, I imagine kind of learning, oh, this is what my dad was like.
This is this is how I was formed. These are some of the wounds that I have laying some of that
groundwork. So then suddenly it's time for you to go away for two weeks and really confront.
Oh, this is a different kind of father. Your soul was ready. Yeah. So using your own kind of some
of your own, you know, these these metaphors that you give us in the book, these these these.
How does that kind of map on to some of the seasons of your own life?
This has been my journey for the last 30 years. Yeah. And so I love that you said this isn't about
striving. This isn't about reaching the next rung and pulling yourself up.
This is about coming to know more fully who you already are and resting in that.
And then it's having God. reveal himself to you in more ways as that. So the metaphors do increase
through the scriptures. We start out as clay and we are formed from his hands.
And clay needs to actually can't fight the potter, yield to it. And we are formed with intention
and specificity for the unique purpose that we have. And we are formed with delight and with love.
He blesses who we are. He loves who we are. And he invites us to do the same thing. There's so much
about being the clay and him being the potter that it's so worth unpacking for a long time.
And so I get a chance to do that. But we as clay is the metaphor. We're an inanimate object.
We can rise up and the next rung would be sheep where we are alive.
We have breath now. And we get to learn him as our good shepherd, as the one who is guiding us,
protecting us, providing for us, leading us. Some chapters call it,
translations say, the Lord is my best friend. And I lack nothing. And coming to know the provision
of God will be enough. One of the things that I love about him being our good shepherd is that he
is also a lamb himself. So he is the Lamb of God and he knows,
he identifies with us. He knows and understands what we're facing and what it's like to be a sheep
in an often dangerous world. So it's really incredible to get to pull back that curtain of how are
you, my shepherd? What does that even mean?
Well, I want to pause here because I love this ascension. And again, not as sort of the five steps
to, but just this is the journey, the deepening journey. I want to quote you here.
I really want the listener to hear this because I think it relates to how we sometimes perceive
ourselves, especially kind of as the clay or especially at the beginning. You say... I just thought
this was so good. You said many of us have heard the same message that we are not worthy to
approach our holy God. We sing songs that name us wretches. We hear sermons reminding of us,
you know, right. Kind of that almost like that. That's sometimes how I think of when I think of
that clay or the sheep, sheep are stupid. You know, we hear that sheep are, you know, and it's, I
mean, they are kind of, but, but also we can take that in a self-diminishing way. And you say, you
know, we are sometimes diminished as women, you know. Instead of being encouraged by lavish grace
and the boundless love of God, we are sometimes shamed by our fallen humanity. And I love how even
how you're saying this, none of this is to diminish. This is just kind of the natural progression
of a spiritual life, of coming alive in Christ. I just kind of wanted to pause there because you
start the book right off with that. And I thought, oh, we need to hear that. Yeah. This isn't a
hierarchy of, yeah, just maybe say a few words about that. Well,
you know, a ladder, you ascend it and you never lose a rung. Like we're always clay.
But I think in the spiritual ladder, we kind of hop around, you know? And we never,
I'm always a child, but I am the bride, but I am a sheep, but I'm clay. I am all of these things
and they are all essential. To my identity in Christ. In fact, the latter could be a ladder of
identity. Our own or the identity of God as he has revealed himself in the scriptures.
Something that I write earlier in the book. And it's always loving. Yeah. Oh my goodness. He just
gets better because there's always that we've learned him wrong. We have all known pain and sorrow.
Yeah. Everybody knows that. But to turn those merciful eyes on ourself can be a challenge.
And then also to recognize that the wounds I've received, the pain I have suffered, has actually
warped my perception of who God is. And to go,
okay, I want to learn you rightly. I really do. Yeah.
He wants that as well. But it's actually a choice too. Because I write that love and mercy,
they're unconditional. But intimacy with Jesus isn't.
You actually have to pursue it. You have to want it.
You have to risk hoping again. You have to respond to a hunger that's so deep you say,
I long for you. I want to know you. And it propels you to move. Yeah,
that's interesting. It reminds me that when you have the bride in there, it reminds me of any
relationship. You have to pursue it. You have to pursue that intimacy.
So what comes, so we have, I love that. We have clay and sheep and then what else?
Keep going with those. Next comes for mine that I wrote is servant. which I actually loved to
reframe as devoted one because there's just something in me that diminishes the role of servant.
I don't want to just be a servant, but a devoted one, one who is responding out of love to the
kindness and goodness of the master who's choosing to serve because they're so marvelous.
That's it. And that's where we learn that everything we do, everything, whether it's our work,
our ministry, our... making a meal from someone in need,
letting somebody go in front of us in the grocery store. It's actually worship.
It's offering back the love that we've received. But in the natural world,
a servant comes in the back door and wipes their feet before they enter the house.
You're a human being now. You're not an inanimate object. You're not an animal. You're a human
being. But you're relegated to a certain level of relationship. So the next rung is child.
A child barges in the front door. They don't care if their feet are dirty or what,
and they can leap onto their father's lap. They know that they are delighted in,
or they're meant to know this, simply because they exist, just because they are.
They are the apple of their father's eye. I'm sure you're familiar with Timothy Keller's quote.
I'm going to misquote it, but it's something. Like the only person who can wake a king at three in
the morning for a glass of water is a child. And we have that kind of access.
Like the proximity that we hold to our father's heart has come boldly before me.
Like, come on, come on in. Don't wait till you get yourself cleaned up. I'm not waiting. I want you
right now. I want you in totality, the good, the bad, the ugly. The soaring, the suffering,
come to me. That's the invitation throughout scripture is him saying come. Come to me and come
closer. So that's father. But we don't stop there. Should I keep going?
Okay. So the next one I write about is sibling. Jesus is our brother.
He's our brother. And in the natural realm of brother. That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
A sibling knows the inside scoop. And the parents might not know that the sibling does.
I can say a phrase in front of my sisters and my brother. They will know exactly where I'm going.
Yes. They will know exactly. Or just one word and they might start. It's a different kind of
intimacy. It's different. my body when you say like father there's sort of a kind of intimacy it is
it's all sibling is a different kind of intimacy it's all different kinds of intimacy it's really
true yeah and we have the same father we are yeah he is our brother yeah he's our elder brother
he's our advocate and again our protector because you think about the brother on the playground
that protects their younger sibling from the bully like you you're gonna have to come through me to
get to them And that's what Jesus did for us. Or the parents. I had times when my siblings went,
no, it wasn't her that did it. It was me. Just like Jesus did for us. Don't punish her.
I'll take it. And there's a way of knowing him that increases.
And I'll tell you, this is probably the way before I knew him the least. I didn't really know him
as that. So it's been really fun. As a sibling. To dive in. Yeah. Interesting.
Yeah. We don't stop there. We keep going up. Yeah, that's good. And now we go to friend.
Friend. There's an equality in friendship. There's a reciprocity. Jesus not only says that he is
our friend, but he says, I want you to be my friend. And you think of a father does not confide in
their child. He's not going to put the weight. Yeah. But a friend confides in a friend.
Yeah. Jesus says he'll tell us the secrets of his heart. There's a verse that says the Lord
confides in those who fear him. And we see it in the scriptures. There's several,
several stories where people are called the friend of God and he tells them his heart.
He tells them what he's doing. So, I mean, the incredible honor of this, that not only is he our
friend, but we get to be his. What does that even mean? What does it mean that I get to be? His
friend, you know, this God who we think he doesn't need anything. He doesn't need it, but he wants
it. He wants us. He wants our love. He wants this mutual relationship.
So that's Fred, which is camp out there for a long time. But then we go even higher and we go to
bride. And this bride, the corporate church is the bride of Christ. And this isn't about a white.
lace, wedding gown, or flowers in our hair because men and women are the bride of Christ.
We are all sons. We are all the bride. This is about the proximity to his heart.
We are his counterpart. We are the one who partners with him.
A partner. A partner. That's right. Yeah, and bringing his kingdom. And then I love the Shulamite
in Song of Songs. Who is this coming up from the wilderness, leaning on her beloved?
She has become a mature bride. She's been in the wilderness. There's been the honing, the person,
all that's been going on there. And she has come to know her beloved in ways that she didn't
before. And she comes up resting on him. And that's why a mature bride is a bride who is leaning.
She is at rest. She's not striving to become. She's resting in who she is.
And you go through all of this in the book. And like you said, you could meditate on each one for
several weeks. Let me ask you this. And you kind of already answered it. But I wanted to ask you,
which rung has been hardest for you to receive? You said the sibling one was the most kind of like
foreign. I think for me, in my story of my life, would have been and is leaving servant.
Not saying I don't want to serve you. I don't want to love you. I want to worship you with my life.
But I realized that the things that I was doing, I was volunteering at church.
I was volunteering at Crisis Pregnant Center. I was teaching Sunday school.
And I kind of thought it was making God like me better and that I needed to be doing those things
in order to have this approval. Yeah, which goes back to those wounds you were talking about.
It goes back to it. That one maybe got the most conflated with how you had experienced your earthly
father. And I think a lot of people actually get stuck there because they can get told you are
worth what you do.
Your value lies in what you produce and what you offer. And so you are welcome here if you serve.
And we want to do that, but not out of, again, not to earn something, but because we've already
received something. And when I realized that, that I actually am the beloved of God right now,
in the middle of my imperfection and my messy, I am loved unchangeably,
endlessly, immeasurably. It didn't make me not want to do those things anymore,
but it sure changed my motive for it. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. What would you say to a woman who's listening who either,
I guess I'm going to ask this question in two ways. Let me start with the wounding where there's
been some wounds within one of those relationships.
And so that rung feels either. out of reach or almost painful?
What would you encourage her to do next? Would you encourage her to focus on a different rung?
How would you encourage someone who one of those relationships has gotten very marred in real life?
And so it's hard to reach that. So there's no desire probably even to know God in that way.
It's too messy. I would just want to offer her mercy. There's a timing.
There's a timing. And you have a God who came to heal the brokenhearted and set the captive free.
That's what Jesus said his whole mission is about. Not to scrap you, but to restore you and heal
you. And he's very intentional about it. So to know that no matter what we've suffered,
what trauma we've endured, what it's been like, nothing is out of his reach. And he's for you.
So I know the work you do and then hopefully the work I'm doing as well is to give people handrails
on how to step forward and to receive the emotional healing that they need.
To walk with God and do the excavation. How have I learned him wrong?
And then have him come and tend to those places, which he can do. He is the God out of time.
He heals us all throughout our own lives and journey at whatever age. And then to restore us and
begin to reveal himself to us as he really is. And that is a journey worth taking.
You tell stories about this in the book. I love the story you tell about your prayer closet,
literally. It's so beautiful how you describe it.
pursues this intimacy with God. What does it look like? What does that pursuit look like on a
normal day when you're not, you know, yeah. How do you notice and kind of stay close to God just in
the normal daily rhythms of your life? That's good. That's good. So I believe that Christianity not
only is about restoration, but that the goal is union. He wants oneness with us.
He wants conversational intimacy. He's interested in the details. In the day-to-day,
in the moment-by-moment. And so cultivating that relationship is a worthy endeavor.
That takes a lifetime to increasingly grow in. And that's what he wants.
It's what we want. So it's worth it. So for me, when my children were young,
it might have looked like three minutes in the bathroom. That was my quiet time.
And there's grace for that. There's mercy for that. Or for me too. Was it the stoplight? If I had a
red light, I had a little devotional with me. Just give me a scripture. Give me something to hang
on to. But then probably when they were a little older,
like 6, 8, 10, I could have an hour. And I created a little space in our house that was in our...
The room has like your heater and stuff in it. It wasn't like a pretty room, but I tried to
sequester a little place and just get in there only to be with God and not really to pray,
not to ask him for stuff, but just to fix the gaze of my heart,
turn my attention onto who he is and ask for to see his beauty. And then I would just tell him how
much I loved him. I love you. And to worship him. So worshiping him for what he could do or what I
could get is really a central theme in my life. And that's like my little area that I meet with him
now. It's a worship room. That's what I call it. And so what it looks like for me is getting still
and getting quiet and turning my phone on airplane mode and turning it upside down so I don't see
it. I like to put on soft instrumental music in the background, and then I literally will imagine
myself sinking into my heart, dropping down to where Christ dwells,
and ask Holy Spirit for help to become attuned to his presence, that I might see him,
that I might hear him. And then when the distracting thoughts come, and they do, Just let them flip
by or sometimes I write them down. If it's going to haunt me, I have to come back to that later.
But that's just normal. And then it's something that we just get better at over time as we practice
like anything else. Just to sink in, settle in, tell him I love him.
Be quiet. Ask if there's anything he wants to say to me. It might involve reaching for the word and
meditating on scriptures. I might have a book in there of something that I'm going through and
studying. But it primarily is being quiet with him and just telling him how marvelous he is.
I'm very intrigued by this idea of. Trying on the different roles.
Sometimes with my husband, we'll say to each other, which role are you asking me to play here?
Right. You know, it's like, I just want to gossip with a friend. Okay. You know, I'm not, I'm not
asking you to solve this, you know, or, um, I, I'm actually coming to you as a consultant,
you know, I'd like for your, you to put your problem solving eyeballs on this, you know, or, right.
So I'll say, you know, we kind of will name what, which, which person do you wish, you know, for
me, I'm a therapist, you know, do you want the therapist me or no, you know, cause it's just
helpful to name that. Right. And I'm kind of. toying with this new book of yours and the way you've
kind of, I really like, I'm kind of toying with like, if I'm taking a walk, like I have the time
where I'm quiet with God, but like, I'm kind of toying with, could you just be my friend right now?
I want to just tell you, you know, kind of trying out the different, um, or I really need,
you know, kind of trying out some of those different, or, or I need to be a shepherd. I, I need to
hear your voice. I need you to be a shepherd, right? I need to be a sheep. I need to hear your
voice right now. It kind of strikes me that it's kind of beautiful that we can...
Kind of, you know, Matt, because because that that has grown out of intimacy with my husband,
right, where we know each other well enough that when we're saying, you know, don't be the
therapist. I don't take it personally. I'm like, yeah, totally. I get it. Kind of like what you're
saying. I want father now, not you, Jesus. You know, it's I think that's really kind of cool.
I'm going to I'm going to test that out, you know, as I'm spending time with God. Yeah, that's the
best. That's the best because it's actually true. I love the way you said that you can do, you
know, with your husband because of your intimacy. Because of how you know him. And that is the
beautiful thing about God is that he wants us to know him like that. To know the word he's going to
use. Like you might know with a spouse. You know what he's going to say. Or the sound of his
footsteps or what a look conveys. Like he wants us to know him like that. That yada is the Hebrew
word, gnosis in Greek. And Jesus says that this is eternal life.
That you know the Lord. And that's the knowing. It's not the facts.
It's not knowing about. It's the internal, actually,
I really know you. I'm at rest there. And the more we know him,
it's true, the more we love him. And the more we are not identified by our pain or our past,
but by our present and our future, we know who we are because we know we're his.
Yeah. That's so good. That different kind of knowing. Yeah. I guess I'm curious as we're kind of
winding down, you've walked with Jesus for a long time. You gave us a glimpse of what it was like
at the beginning. Is there anything, everything you've kind of understood, what would you want your
younger Stacey to know about God that you know now?
What would you want her to know?
and this changed everything for me when she did come to know it, was that you are delighted in
right now. It's not for what you do. It's because you exist.
You are delighted in. You are actually the beloved of God. You are the one that is chosen and holy
and dearly loved. And these words that we hear in church or in the scriptures actually have a
meaning to them that we don't need to just gloss over. So I like that you are delighted in.
He likes me. He likes you, little one. He made you on purpose. Your sense of humor and your taste
and what you think is funny and what offends you. He likes you.
And it's not because of what you do. I think about when I'm a grandmother.
Eight grandchildren and one on the way. And you hold that baby and I'm undone.
I love them. They can't do anything. They're just lying there.
And it's like that. It's like that. You are loved because you exist as you.
As you. And who you are brings something to the heart of God that no one else does.
Yeah, that's beautiful. There is just something about... I think Stacey,
there's such an infectiousness to how you embody your love of,
of God. And I think it, so that's, that's why so many of us,
you know, there's a realness to it that just, you can feel and it, it kind of creates that, you
know, we talk a lot about how, and you've touched on this, how we can kind of learn in our bodies,
faulty messages, even when we know with our minds. Yes. And you're someone,
you know, just through your own story and the way you talk about it, you can feel in your body that
love. It's infectious. And I'm just so grateful that for you and for this new book,
I think. It's just a really beautiful way to think about all these different ways we can know God.
It's really beautiful. Thank you. It's a worthy endeavor. Yeah. Yes, it's a worthy endeavor.
Tell my listeners where they can find you in the book and what other kinds of things you're doing
right now around the book launch and just where they can connect with you.
That's great. So The Ladder of Love is available wherever you buy books. And there's also a study
guide, a six-week series that's going along with it where I do teaching and then guided prayers in
it. What I really like is I've done study guides before, but I've just kind of taken stuff from the
book and plopped it in, whereas this one, it's new material. I'm coming at the same message.
But just some new ways. So I'm excited about that. So the Ladder of Love and wildatheart.org.
That's the website for our ministry. And we've just got all kinds of resources there. Discipleship
and ways to encounter God and teaching and videos. And we do events and retreats. That's just a
really great place to learn more.
I learned because I'm up here in Wyoming. You guys are down in Colorado. We share an overlapping.
The woman who edits my podcast was telling me, she said, I'm here in this room and this woman is
teaching from the same scripture that I just edited. And it was you. And so I learned that we have
that convergence. But I didn't realize how much you guys were doing to minister to people through
Wild at Heart. So please do check out those. resources and shout out to Kelly but I just it's just
really incredible what you guys are doing and we're so grateful thank you thanks for having me what
a joy to be with you you too Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You.
It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
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.jpeg)
How do you know you can trust someone?
In a world where charisma, confidence, and even vulnerability can be carefully performed, knowing who we can trust feels more important than ever.
In this powerful conversation, Dr. Alison sits down with longtime friend, therapist, and author Dr. Chuck DeGroat to explore what real character looks like, why genuine change is slower than we want it to be, and how to discern the difference between surface-level transformation and lasting integrity. Together, they unpack this incredibly important question of discerning when someone is trustworthy, as well as how to become people of character ourselves.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Why charisma and vulnerability don’t always signal trustworthy character.
* How to recognize manipulation disguised as emotional maturity or spiritual wisdom.
* What genuine character change looks like and how long it takes
* How to balance compassion for others with healthy boundaries and accountability.
About Dr. Chuck DeGroat:
Dr. Chuck DeGroat is a professor, licensed therapist, author, and ordained minister specializing in pastoral health, spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and emotional and spiritual well-being. He serves as Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality and Founding Executive Director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program at Western Theological Seminary. He is also the founder of The Soul Care Collaborative and a faculty member at the Soul Care Institute. With decades of experience in pastoral ministry, leadership development, and trauma-informed care, Dr. DeGroat helps individuals and church leaders navigate emotional and spiritual challenges toward greater wholeness and flourishing.
More Resources:
Get Dr. Chuck DeGroat's inew book: Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age
Find moreinformation about Dr. Chuck DeGroat here.
Get exclusive access to the first 2 chapters of Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul.
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here.
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Transcript
Episode 231
Dr. Chuck DeGroat
What we're wrestling with today is who can we trust? I mean, I think that's the big question. There
is this appearance of vulnerability today that... a kind of shallow trust.
Vulnerability opens up space in relationships and, you know, vulnerability consumes, it devours
another, it manipulates another, right? And I think that's some of what we're seeing, right, in
this highly visible social media culture that we're in. It's not that power is wrong.
You have power, I have power. It's how we show up with that power. It's how we embody that power.
Does that power create space for people? Does it empower other? people?
Is it generous to others or does it consume others? We make these things so complicated,
right? Even our best psychology, our best theology, our best Bible knowledge can be used as ways to
hide. There's an invitation to a kind of simplicity. Perhaps with all of our too theological,
too psychological language, we've lost the plot line.
Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Allison and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You.
Today's guest is someone who is not only a colleague and an author whose work I deeply admire,
but he's also a friend in real life. So it's so fun to have a real life friend come on the podcast
and see where the conversation goes. I've known Dr. Chuck DeGro for about eight years now.
We first connected shortly after Boundaries for Your Soul came out. Chuck had been exploring
internal family systems and part works, and there was this immediate overlap between the kinds of
questions both of us were asking. We... Both are interested in questions like,
how do we understand what's happening psychologically inside of us while also taking seriously the
life of the soul, the life of spiritual formation? And how do therapy and spiritual formation speak
to each other? How does the soul form, not only in trauma and healing trauma,
but also just in the daily practices that we partake in? And over the years,
Chuck is just someone I've continued to learn from. as he doesn't shy away from naming really hard
things, really tough truths, while also holding alongside of that this vision,
this hope for what could be. And that brings us to our conversation today.
Many of you may know Chuck from his book called When Narcissism Comes to Church. That book has
helped so many people put language around something that can be incredibly confusing. especially in
faith spaces. And it kind of gets at what happens when charisma and giftedness and spiritual
authority or leadership ability coexist side by side with serious deficits of character and how
that can harm not only individuals, but also whole systems, whole communities of people.
And Chuck's work on that in When Narcissism Comes to Church has just been such a helpful resource
for so many people. We'll link to that book as well as his other book called Healing. What's
Within. He came on the podcast to talk about that book a couple of years ago. We'll link to those
in the show notes. But this week, he's on the podcast to talk about his brand new book. It's called
Who You're Becoming. The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age.
I mean, what a title. I think this is a book for all of us. And one of the things I've become
increasingly convinced of in my own work is that we need a clear picture of what to aim for when we
talk about things like character, when we talk about things like safety, right? Over the last few
years, we've learned some vocabulary and some language for what's toxic, for what's not healthy,
for what's a red flag, for what to watch out for. And all of that is important. And we have a lot
of episodes on the podcast. And we need to be able to name those hard things. But we also need to
have a vision for what we want to shoot for, what we hope to become, what God designed for us to
look like when we have. been engaging that work of cultivating character. And that's why I just
love this new book and this conversation with Chuck DeGroat. And Chuck is asking us a very simple
but also powerful question. He's asking us what kind of person Are you becoming?
And that's a very different question that often the world around us asks us. It's not about what
kind of achievements you've put into the world or how well your kids are doing even,
as much as that is in... or, you know, how long your quiet times are or how much head knowledge you
have about theology. Chuck's asking us to really look inside and ask ourselves,
are we becoming more loving? Are we becoming people who know joy? Are we becoming people who make
peace inside of ourselves and with others? Are we becoming people of patience, both with ourselves
and with those around us? Are we becoming more kind? Are we becoming more gentle with ourselves and
with others? Are we becoming the kind of people who resemble Christ?
In today's conversation, Chuck helps us tease out the difference between character,
like personality, which can make a big impression, but doesn't necessarily correlate with deep
character or something like charisma, which again can capture a room, but does not always correlate
with character or even communication skills, which can sound great, but does not always correlate
with character. And in Chuck's words, character is something we discover and build over time as we
learn to tend to the formation of our own lives. We also talk about how to discern character in our
leaders and people around us and to separate it out again from personality or charisma or
communication skills and notice the signs of character in someone's day-to-day lives.
And I think all of us can agree that this distinction is incredibly important right now,
politically and in our faith spaces and in our communities. We're looking desperately, I think,
for leaders with character and we want to learn how to detect those cues.
In today's conversation, we'll talk about how difficult it can be to feel like we can trust
leaders, people in positions of power and what we should be looking for to discern character,
not to judge, but to understand where our trust is actually been earned and can be placed.
And then we also move into another question that I know many of you have wrestled with. I know many
of you have written to me about this. Can people really And what are the signs of true character
change, especially when we're talking about longstanding patterns, maybe narcissistic patterns or
abuses of power, deeply entrenched, harmful ways of relating. Chuck has spent decades sitting with
people in these situations, both with people who have caused real harm and also with the people who
have been harmed. He brings a wealth of wisdom to the conversation. And just as a friend.
I know him to be someone who emanates these qualities in his own real life.
And this is not easy work, the work of building character. I know that to be true in my own life.
Chuck talks about it in the episode. He tells an incredible story toward the end about a
conversation he had with a pastor who experienced a very public moral failure and then spent years
doing quiet...
unseen work and how that changed Chuck and how he sees this work in an age.
that wants a quick fix, that wants people back in the public eye, and it is not always conducive to
this slow work of character. Dr. Chuck DeGroat is a licensed therapist, a spiritual director,
an author, and he's the professor of counseling and Christian spirituality at Western Theological
Seminary, where he also serves as the founding executive director of the Clinical Mental Health
Counseling. program. He's the founder of the Soul Care Collaborative and has spent decades working
at the intersection of psychology, spiritual formation, pastoral health, trauma, and abuse. He's
the author of several books, including When Narcissism Comes to Church, Healing What's Within, and
his newest book, Who You're Becoming, the slow and courageous work of cultivating character in a
narcissistic age. I am so grateful for Chuck, for his friendship, and for the wisdom and humility
he brings to this work. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Chuck.
Have we gotten worse at discerning and recognizing character?
Or is this something we've never been good at? And the reason I'm asking it that way is because you
argue in the book that... We've sort of elevated these charisma,
charm, credentials, kind of communication styles. You named that, and I was like,
that is such a big one. Someone can master the art of communication and not have character.
Why do you think... we're bad at this. Is it the sort of the, the,
the world around us working against us or is it something we've, we've always struggled with as
humans? Yeah. Yeah. Like even the seas that you just named, I mean, those are the kinds of things
that come up in pastoral searches nowadays and stuff like that. You know, that's what, that's what
churches are looking for. But yeah, the question is really good and it's, it's sort of complicated,
right? Because it has. I often say that this has evolved, and it's always evolving, and so that the
discernment gets a little more difficult as there are these new iterations of,
you know, I've written on narcissism before, where there are people who use the language of
spiritual practices and spiritual formation and Enneagram.
and health and vagus nerve exercises and all the things that you and I talk about,
you know, who are performative even in the way they show up,
right? Yes. Who, you know, who lack the kind of character that...
like to see in everyone from pastors to therapists to coaches to plumbers to you know the whole
thing but i don't think this is necessarily new though either although it's evolved and shifted uh
we were just talking about soul care the christian soul character i'm a bit of a student of history
right and this was a conversation that i've been reading a book this summer that goes back to the
sixth century when pope gregory the great was calling leaders and pastors to character in a time
when they were being pulled into power and when Christendom was sort of taking off and growing.
And so this has been like around, let's just go all the way back to Genesis 3. It's been around for
a long time. It just takes on different forms and different seasons. Yeah,
that's a good point. The serpent was masquerading as someone with character.
And she was deceived. Yeah. But even, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.
What, in your, before we go too deep, how do you define character?
What should we be looking for as character? Yeah,
yeah. Well, so I mean, I think let's just start there. What should we be looking for? And this
really simplifies it for me because this is where the whole conversation crystallized for me a few
years ago when I was thinking about what do I want to write on and what might even be a good...
People were asking about the narcissism book and how people change and what would I say today. And
what sort of crystallized was...
You know, you and I probably got into this years ago. I know for me, it was the late 1990s when I
trained to be a therapist and a pastor. So it's been quite a while. And back then, I hoped that,
I mean, I was a pastor of spiritual formation. I was a counseling center founder. I hoped that
people would become more vulnerable, more self-aware, engage spiritual practices, more regular,
like all the things. Know their Enneagram type. And here we are now and people know these things
and we've got all sorts of resources. And I think the question that sort of crystallized for me a
few years ago was, are we becoming more loving, joyful, peaceful,
patient, kind, faithful, gentle? And that's where there,
even in my body, I felt that there was a sense of like, oh, no. And so for me,
that's character is shaped around love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, familiar fruits of the
spirit to many. I call it the hidden architecture of one's life because it takes a while to know
character, right? Personality pops. But character is known. I mean, I've got some colleagues at the
seminary I've been around for years. I've got people in my life who I've known for decades. I know
something of their character because I've seen them over the course of years. And I know them to be
loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, even though they have really bad days sometimes.
Yes. They annoy the heck out of me sometimes, right? Yes. I think that is so profound what you just
said. And it makes me wonder if some of the... the online world has exacerbated the modern,
because how can I really know the character of someone I've never met? Right. I've only seen an
avatar of them. Can I really know the character? I mean, a little bit,
I guess. Yeah, a little bit, right? And I mean, you and I have known each other online for years
now and been in a group. And I think there's something about relationship and that space. But I do
think that There's something about maybe the false intimacy that comes with quick social media
connection and contact. A lot of us have experienced this and have experienced both the ecstasy of
like, oh, I have a new friend and having the bottom fall out in that because we disagree
politically or because...
Because we just live different lives. And so there's something of an artificiality to that,
a shallowness, to the fragility of that perhaps, right, that isn't seen in our closest
relationships. Yeah. And even in our real life, it's interesting what you said about that with your
colleagues, that those patterns, because I could imagine even, you know.
Even if I go, let's say, I don't want to pick on churches, but let's say I go to a large church and
someone is amazing from the pulpit, but I'm not really necessarily in day-to-day life bumping up
against those situations that reveal character. So even in our embodied life,
you know, it's so interesting coming, I grew up in such a small insulated town. Yeah.
My husband and I were just talking about how you can't really hide the way that we could,
in a sense, when I was living in Boston, and we still do some, but you cannot bump up against
people in a suburb. You know, in the way that,
like you're saying, in your smaller community on a campus or where those patterns,
day in and day out, create those moments, not for perfection, but for revealing how character
spills out. Right. And that's where, I mean, you and I both talk a lot about vulnerability and
that's part of the conversation in this book, vulnerability versus vulnerability. But,
you know, the kind of vulnerability that. cultivates character and depth in relationships,
a real knowing and being known, right? I don't think that we're capable of lots of vulnerable
relationships. In fact, people often say when I do these kinds of things, you're so vulnerable. And
I'll say I'm open, but vulnerability is reserved for just a few people in my life.
You know, vulnerability, there's some immediacy to vulnerability. Like in the moment, I can share
what's really going on. What I share here and in other places, I process probably,
right? But there is this appearance of vulnerability today that breeds a kind of shallow trust.
Oh, he talks so earnestly about his Enneagram type and about all the ways that he's hurt people in
his life, and he must be trustworthy. And I think that there's a sense that...
Let's not move too quickly there, you know. But there's something of that that I'm hearing a lot.
I'm sure you're hearing these stories, too. Lots of stories of people who are like, oh, I trusted
him because from the platform he shared so earnestly or so vulnerably over social media in his
book. But what we're wrestling with today is who can we trust?
I mean, I think that's the big question.
And that does not, just because somebody shares a deep, dark secret, does not make them
trustworthy.
Yes. And in fact, is that what you mean? Tell me, I know you've used this word a lot,
but it's such a great word. What do you mean by faux-nerability? I'm hearing in that as sort of
almost manipulative. I'm going to use vulnerability to get trust. Yeah, that's right.
I think that's right. I mean, it's the pretense of vulnerability, right? But it's manipulative.
It's ultimately deceptive. It uses others. I think vulnerability opens up space in relationships.
And, you know, vulnerability consumes. It devours another. It manipulates another,
right? And so... And I think that's some of what we're seeing right in this highly visible social
media culture that we're in. Just to kind of underscore, I think some of the words that you talk
about in the book of looking for character over time are truth telling, humility to admit fault,
consistency over time. And I thought this, I think this one's important. The ability to hold power
without using it to harm. Yeah. So power in and of itself isn't necessarily the issue with
character. Yeah. It's how do I hold power without doing harm? It's not that power is wrong.
You have power. I have power. I've been in various leadership positions over the years. It's how we
show up with that power. It's how we embody that power. Does that power, as I was talking about
with vulnerability, does that power create space for people? Does it empower other people?
Is it generous to others or does it consume others? Does it demand loyalty?
Does it enforce boundaries in ways that exclude? Like there are all sorts of ways that we can sort
of name the good and the bad of power, right? But I think that that's what we're looking for over
time. Will I misuse power at times? Of course I will, right? Will I not tell the truth to go back
through that list, right? Are there times where I'm going to show up not as humble as I'd like to
show up? Yes, but those... are the exceptions and I hope the people in my life would know that and
say, you know, what was going on yesterday? I'd like to talk about that with you. That's why I love
the humility to admit fault. I missed this one. I didn't get this right. Kind of, it kind of gets
out the, the ability to repair after something has happened,
which can mean more than the fact that there was even a rupture to begin with. If someone's willing
to genuinely own. And I'd love to kind of dig into this because you've said a couple of times that,
and I literally heard someone tell me this the other day, saying that this person who is
mistreating her uses a lot of therapy language, uses a lot of,
well, in a way that is being used to harm.
Yeah. And I guess I'm... to dig into a little bit for the listener.
Yeah. What? And what's happening? Let's say there's a disagreement and someone comes to you or
someone comes to me and says, Hey, I, I, the way you're doing this is landing this way on me or,
or, or, um, this is hurting me. And,
and, and. I guess in our modern era, the other person may not just be saying,
you're stupid. They know better. They might be saying, well, you're too sensitive.
Or they might use therapeutic language to essentially gaslight us.
Because that can be confusing, right? And also people use spiritual language, right? Biblical,
theological language, all the language, right? Yeah, yeah.
For the listener, if that's happening, sometimes I think it's helpful to hear, what are the healthy
responses in those moments? What is someone with character? Because,
again, I can imagine someone coming to me and I'm getting caught off guard and I have to think
about it and I'm not sure, but I also want to honor, oh, something happened here, right?
So what are, again, what are healthy ways to meet that moment?
Yeah. versus kind of trying to minimize, deflect,
spin. Yeah.
Well, I mean, health, I always go back to humility and curiosity,
right? I mean, and that may mean in a moment like that. that there's not a demand that you,
you know, you embrace my therapeutic language or my theological language or my spiritual language
or however I'm framing it, right? And I do think nowadays what you're naming is some of what
probably you and I are both hearing that as people, I mean, therapy this is this is the language uh
this is the lingua lingua franca now right this is the kind of language people are using and there
have been some i don't love the critiques of therapy that are coming out uh recently at least the
way they've been articulating things but i think you and i would probably be critical of aspects of
therapy culture and the way we use certain words and the way we some people box others in or try to
diagnose you're so codependent you're so narcissistic you're so toxic you're so sensitive you're so
and i i think here again our language um is our language diminishing another trying to box in
another uh uh trying to um um uh trying to uh diagnose another or is it invitational right and so i
think humility shows up as more open, as more spacious, as more inviting, as more generous.
I don't need to demand my language. I'm not here to diagnose you. I mean, this is the,
for me as a therapist, I'm sure for you too, in the room as well, I have to adjust my language
sometimes, you know, but I want to find my way in and whatever way feels good and right and safe to
you. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, I'm thinking a lot of that is the need.
And it does relate to your work on narcissism. A lot of that is all this need. I need to be right.
I need to support my own illusion of whatever it is versus that humility of. I'm not sure.
Thank you for, I want to think about this. I'm interested in your curiosity. I'm interested in your
perspective. Maybe we, I may not see it the same way, but that doesn't mean that what you're saying
doesn't have value, right? There's so many ways. And I guess I just think we don't often hear that.
I just had the experience where someone didn't send me a link for an interview and I was kind of
waiting for it. He sent me one line. I said, oh, I made a mistake. I'm so sorry. You know, it was
like, wow. you know just that's not hard yeah but we don't hear a lot of just i made a mistake or
you know i need i need i need to take this in and think about it for a bit or even if at the end of
the day there is a little bit of a i'm not sure i see it the same way you see it but i still
respect you as a human yeah Yeah. I mean, it's it's we make these things so complicated,
right? Yeah. Even our best psychology, our best theology, our best Bible knowledge can be used as
ways to hide. Right. And so this is where there is there is this there's an invitation to a kind of
simplicity here in the book there, you know, to love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, like. Why did we make it so complicated? Why, you know, I think even it became
complicated for me, you know, as a therapist. And as I was trying to define what it means for
someone to be whole or healthy, I caught myself at one point in a seminar that I was doing. And
they were like, well, define wholeness. And I'd written a book called Wholeheartedness back in like
2016. And I found myself stumbling over my words to come up with something really deeply
psychological and informed.
And I think I was just exhausted with myself after hearing myself out loud, like talk out loud.
And so there's there's kind of a return to, you know, this is these are the basics here.
And it's that doesn't mean that we become loving and joyful and peaceful and patient people
overnight. It's not easy. There's I get into how that journey is shaped over time.
Right. But it does mean that perhaps with all of our. too theological,
too psychological language, we've lost the plot line, so to speak.
Yeah, I love that. Talk to us a little bit about that journey and how you've seen it in your own
life, in the lives of people you've helped, because you've also walked alongside folks as they've
had quote-unquote character, issues that have hurt people or how do you see change take shape?
Well, that's an easy question, Allison. Right?
Solve it all for us. Yeah, so we could probably spend time on both.
There are those of us who are living our lives who just want to grow up.
just want to be more mature people. Like I just want to, I turned 56 this year and I'm still like,
what am I going to grow up? But there's a sense in which, you know,
as you and I know in the work that we do. The very first book that I wrote was on the Exodus story.
I often say it's a journey that should have taken 11 days. It takes 40 years. It's a long and
winding journey. Three steps forward, two steps back.
Walter Brueggemann wrote a wonderful book on the Psalms years ago where he talked about Psalms of
orientation and disorientation and reorientation, that every journey necessarily needs to go
through a journey of disorientation. And that's hard and that's challenging. We walk people through
those kinds of difficulties in their lives, and I want to normalize that for people.
There's not an up and to the right, straight line to the top journey of sanctification that you'd
pitch or I'd pitch that would be worth anything. It's going to be challenging.
For most of us listening, we need to recognize, we need to normalize challenge,
difficulty, suffering. And for too many people that I work with,
and I'm sure it's the case for you too, they've gone to churches where disorientation hasn't been
normalized. It's a kind of shine Jesus, shine spirituality where there's not much room for sadness,
disappointment, mortality, pain, longing. All the things,
right? And so there's that first piece. The second piece is more complicated, and we can talk about
that if you want to, but that's where we get into the larger conversation about, well,
my previous work on narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder, which, by the way, is a
little bit different than what we mean when we talk about garden variety, narcissism, and where
there are some pretty fixed behavioral and relational patterns that...
challenging to sort of get unstuck. That's like the 201 or 301 version of the book where people
have to sort of dig in a little bit more deeply and where the stewardship of one's journey to
health and to wholeness is a little bit more complex, actually. So here's a question for you on
that second piece.
What incentivizes someone who has those more embedded patterns?
Right. And I like how you're distinguishing. Maybe they're not like full on narcissistic
personality disorder, but there's narcissistic patterns. There's patterns that maybe have worked to
gain a voice or work to gain a platform or worked on some level, but are now hurting people.
What have you seen in your experience will incentivize someone to do the hard work to change those
patterns? Because you also talk in the book about how there are a lot of quick fixes that people
are more than willing to do that don't actually change those patterns. What I'd like to say is what
incentivizes someone is a sense of integrity. And I've seen that. There are folks who I've seen
over the years. You know, I do these five-day intensives, five days, three hours a day. And I've
had quite a number of spiritual leaders, pastors, therapists come to me and say,
I want to be a person of integrity. And I think that's beautiful.
I've seen... I just spent some time with a 32-year-old pastor who said, no moral failure,
no big things have happened, but I don't want to be that person that shows up.
And maybe there's a little fear mixed into, you know, I've read the Roy's report and I've seen all
these stories of these pastors that are being called out. I don't want to be that. So I think
there's that. And then I think there are those. who are seeing what's happening nowadays.
And there's sort of this middle group of people who,
when they come to see me by day three in our five days together, they will confess to me some sort
of something that's going on in their lives that hasn't become a massive moral failure, but some
significant contradictions. I'm drinking a heck of a lot every evening. And then I wake up.
the next day and I drink a whole lot of caffeine and take a lot of ibuprofen and, and, uh, or I'm
overeating or I'm looking at pornography or I'm, uh, whatever it might be, you know, there are
those who are like, I'm sort of on the verge and I'm not sure, but something,
the walls are beginning to crack. And the, the incentive there is like before,
before they crack and come crashing down on me and everyone I love, I want to do something about
this. And then there are those who's. walls have cracked and they've come crashing down and they
are sent to me or they come to me because their diocese or their church,
their denomination, their presbytery, whatever it might be, sends them and says, it's all come
crashing down and this person needs to be rebuilt. And sometimes, honestly, those are the folks
that... most incentive to do the work. It's like there's no more shame at that point.
Like there's nothing more to hide. It's all out. And it's a really kind of a beautiful place.
I was just talking to someone like this the other day who got found out just a few weeks ago and
like it all came out. And he was sitting with me in tears and he was like, I literally have nothing
left to hide. Like I spent a decade hiding all these things. There's nothing left to hide.
now what do I do? What's, you know, what's the work? And so, you know, but for a lot of us,
we, we believe our own illusions and lies. And I know I have for years,
you know, I like to think that I'm healthier than I am. And I hope that I've not had any kind of
massive moral failure or anything like that, but because of people in my life and you and I share
some good friends and, you know, some hard conversations that have happened over the years that
I'm. hopefully have the integrity to be able to ask myself, where do I need to look?
I love that third category you just described to me.
It's such a picture of, it's like there's the mercy of rock bottom, the mercy of everything.
And it feels like Jesus' heart is so close to that.
And that maybe the most dangerous spot is when things are working well and there's something you're
hiding or there's something that's not being addressed, whether you've hid it from yourself or
whether you've been able to hide it from others. Maybe that's the most dangerous place because the
incentive, it's quote unquote working. Yeah, it's working and it's probably worked for a long time,
right? Yeah. I don't think. I suspect we're similar on this. Like, I don't think you and I tend to
come down super hard on those people. I mean, obviously, there's got to be accountability where
there's been harm. But because usually the way they've been living has worked for them for a long
time. I mean, a long, long time and goes back many, many years and probably goes back to childhood.
When I do work with men who are narcissistic or diagnosably narcissistic.
personality disorder where there's been harm done, there is usually a painful,
painful story of trauma, abuse and some sort of subconscious. you know,
sense of like, I will never be there again. I will never be on the bottom. I will never be harmed.
I will be always be the one on top. I will always be the aggressor, you know, and it's not like
they woke up at six years old or eight years old deciding that. But what you realize is that, oh
yeah, you've lived like this. You didn't even realize this is the only mask that you've known.
We call it egocentronic in psychology, right? This is the only face, you know,
this is who I think I am. And so I have some compassion.
I mean, I know folks, there are folks out there, he knows exactly what he's doing. And there are
folks who are just that sinister, right? But there are very many who really don't,
I think they think they're doing the right thing. They think they're being godly and they're
bearing fruit in the world. And it doesn't mean they're not responsible. That's right.
Yeah, it is that that there isn't that conscious, you know, that point at which we become
consciously aware of a thing. That's that's the holy ground of I mean,
when I'm lost in it, it's one thing and you want to put boundaries with someone like that. You got
to be careful because they're not going to see it. And I'm wondering about that. I'm thinking of
the listener who's thinking of a spouse or a child or someone who maybe is starting to have that.
conscious self-awareness that you know maybe i can't rationalize this maybe i i haven't been
wanting to look at this and there's a long tail let's say it's a spouse of stuff all the way back
you know realistically and i get this question all the time like yeah what is,
what are, what can my expectations be of change? Yeah. Right. How long, what, cause that person,
like you said, isn't going to change overnight. There's going to be the two steps forward, one step
back. There's going to be the, I'm going to change this. And then the, it's fine. You know, I mean,
it, that's, and I hear so often from people, well, how long do I stay in this?
How, how, especially if we're talking about marriage or, or, you know, um,
a primary relationship, you know, What meaningful steps can I look for that suggests that there is
some hope here? Because again, to your point, I've seen so many people go through this where they
uncover some of the worst of the worst. And man, they stay in it and they'll stay in a past when
other people think they should. And it'll go one of two ways. Either it'll go, I shouldn't have
stayed in it or it'll go, oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lo and behold. They did it.
And you see both. So I'm always kind of back here going, how do you talk to people about that that
are in a situation like that? I mean, this is challenging, right? So since the late 90s,
I've sat with women who have been in abusive relationships. I've gone to court, testified for them,
talked about emotional abuse back when there were hardly books defining emotional abuse.
And women who've experienced a psychological warfare, the death by a thousand cuts, but there are
no bruises, right? And the transformation that we're talking about is actually pretty rare.
in those circumstances. And so that's challenging. I mean, I don't want to be hopeless.
I don't want to be cynical, and I'm not. I wouldn't write a book called Who You're Becoming if I
was, right? I work with people who engage real change, but oftentimes what you get is the person
who just wants to appease the spouse who's been harmed, right? And so I'll go to counseling,
but we're just spinning our wheels, right? Every now and then what you're getting at is the person
who has this moment of conscience, you know, has something awakens and it's like, I don't want to
be that person. But that's like a razor's edge. Like that's so, will they continue to do the work?
Because there are a thousand reasons not to do it, not least their own lifelong survival patterns,
right? And so there's got to be some real I mean, I jump when I see that because I want to I like I
want to dig in and I was OK, let's let's start doing something here. But even then,
we've got to be really realistic about the kinds of changes. And so I really prioritize the safety
of spouses, mostly women in situations like this. And then.
Once we've considered, what does safety look like for you? What do you need? Then,
okay, let's think about doing the work. Because that work, particularly for people who harm,
and where that's been a pattern over years, that kind of has become what I call characterological,
to use psychological language. I mean, that's not... to go away in six months to a year,
right? Those are patterns that need to change over years. And so again, this is not about being
hopeless, but this is a long journey. I've worked with people who've,
I've worked with women who've, they've gone through a divorce and they've gotten remarried to
spouses later, right? So I've seen, you've seen stories of transformation, but the work takes a
long time. This is why when I, when I work with abusive spouses, when I work with ministry leaders
who are narcissistic and abusive, I'm talking about the work in terms of years and oftentimes like
five to 10 years versus months.
That's a healthy. From someone who's been in the trenches, I think that's a healthy reality check.
And therefore, you have to know your own self. Can I put the supports that I need?
And if I'm going to wait, don't be naive. Yeah, it's and don't be you talk in the book about people
sincerely apologizing. And right back to the old ways,
quick sabbaticals, quick. Shot of therapy. I'm all fixed now. And not,
I think that it's not that you're being pessimistic. There's a real realistic portrait you paint in
the book of real change has to be real. Yeah. And I think you tell the pastor,
you tell a story about a pastor where it was like a 10 year journey. Could you share that?
I mean, there are hopeful stories. There really are. I had some students last year at the end of a
class say, can you please tell us some hopeful stories, Jeff? Like, you've got all of the terrible
ones. Yeah, I mean, real briefly, moral failure,
it blew up his marriage, but I mean, he was a pastor, so it, I mean... The debris field is
significant, right? And the betrayal of trust. We're talking about someone who's made covenant with
a church and been ordained and all the things. And so significant accountability and care for the
spouse. I mean, all of it was pretty well done in the beginning. And I was sort of guiding some of
that work. And I had said, I think this is like a decade's worth of work. And I don't want you in
ministry for a long, long time. And so he stepped fully out of ministry and started doing his work,
and they were separated for probably two or three years. And then I was offering some guidance,
but I had gotten them connected with local therapists, and then I lost track. And I'd heard things
here or there, like, yeah, they're back together. And, you know, we can be a little cynical at
times. Part of me was like, oh, yeah, they're back together, and it's all going to be fine, right?
Sure. And years later, I ran into him on a city street. I won't tell you what city, but like he was
talking about a church that he was applying to. And and so there was a little part of me that's
like, oh, yeah, you're applying to be a pastor. OK, tell me about that. And he said, no, no, no,
no. It's more of a I'm going to be sort of a maintenance worker at the church. There's there's a
blanking on the term, the Episcopal Church. What is it, a sexton or something like that? Or what is
it? Yeah.
And I'm just, I'm going to clean toilets. And that's my entry point back in.
And then down the road, if my wife and I discern that there might be something else I could step
into. So it was this very slow journey. And he was just oozing with integrity. And, you know,
when you sit with someone, speak to someone who's just so earnest and sincere,
that's what I experienced that day. Like his face looked different. I sat with people whose faces
are sort of hardened and they're hiding and they're, you know, manipulating. And this was just his
face was soft. His eyes were tender. Like there were tears. There was some sense of this is what
I'm being called into. This is my way back into the church. And so there are stories like that that
are really beautiful. But I think you and I probably have been doing this long enough to now we're
measuring it now. Like I'm getting to the 30 year point. Right. So I'm starting to be able to. tell
the stories of a decade later, two decades later, you know, and those are really beautiful stories,
but they take a long, long time. I love that story. Thank you for sharing it.
It reminds me of the scripture where it says, you know, you, you gain the world, but you lose your
soul. Like, but the reverse is also true. Like that's such a gospel story.
I will become the least of these quote unquote. And actually that's the most character filled.
Yeah. You know, Jesus sees it so upside down, but the cost for so many people,
and I think, again, you're not being cynical, but you're being realistic in the book. The cost of,
I'm going to give it all up and maybe get into a whole different, you know, a lot of it you hear,
when can I get back? How soon can I get back into ministry? How soon will you forgive me? That's
always the question. How soon will you take me back? How long will this take? Yep. Yeah. Or what
will it cost me? And it's quick. And by the way, I think in the therapeutic world,
with the self-help gospel, with some of the things that we put out there,
we give the impression at times. that it's going to be quick. That if you come and see Chuck or
Allison, I think even with these five-day intensives, there's a sense that the language that a lot
of us have on our websites is a language of transformation. And we long for that, but there's no
promise. And when I talk to people, I sit down with them. I'm like, this is the very beginning.
This may just be the moment where you... you take the mask off and you start to look at it for the
very first time. And it's like, I was wearing a mask or that, you know, we like to use parts
language. I, for the very first time, I named that part of me that's been in the driver's seat for
the last 20 years. That may be it. And, and from there, we'll chart a course for the next.
Five years. But we're not talking about we'll chart a course for the end of your four week
sabbatical and then start a podcast. Get back in the pulpit or whatever it might be. Jump back in
the marriage. I'm a great husband now. I'm a great husband now. Or wife. You should move back in
with him. No. We're going to take it really, really slow. And we're not going to measure it by you
said some nice words or you had tears. We're going to measure it by.
I was going to say weeks, but really months and months and months of consistency. Because what
you'll see is... a month of consistency and then the the slippage you know and you and i have seen
this a thousand times where it's it's like yeah he was he was doing so well he brought me flowers
he was showing up he called me a few times he sent some nice texts and then and then i got the
anger and then he didn't show up and then you know and then the business trip was more important
and okay so the character is measured in you know that consistency over time,
not just in nice words. It's so good, Chuck. I think you've really found such a sweet spot with
this book of what it is. There's always compassion, right?
And the reality of what it takes to change. when there's been these,
these cemented patterns, it reminds me, we're kind of ending where we started, which is that's when
you see it. People will say they give their public apology and then they say, I'm going, I'm going
to a therapist. And I always think, so what, so what? Like, so that's your magic. Get out of, you
know, you're going to a therapist. That's your, that's your quick fix for like, what are you doing
with that? And the therapist can't fix you. You have, there's a long, and I really love that you're
just setting that. And I, and I think for the listener, you know, I will sometimes say to women, If
they're trying to figure out, you know, it's sort of like just understand this is a, you know, if
we think about marriage as a covenant, as a contract, this is a different contract in a sense.
Maybe you're not ready to leave, but you need to understand that this interim period is, you're
going to have to support yourself in a different way. You're going to have to let this marriage,
I think it's Esther Perel who talks about every marriage has seven different.
actual relationships within it right like this is a different type of relationship as you discern
trust and that's okay that's a whole nother conversation but but the point being don't don't set
yourself up for that they changed they uh back to normal they changed like no and that'll actually
help you In the long term to recognize what you're getting into. And again, that's not hopeless.
That's realistic. And that's actually helpful. And I think that's that's such a sweet spot that
you're hitting with this book that is so important for all of us. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah.
Just just to close, I guess, Chuck, what is for you? You know,
you've done this for a while. You've sat with a lot of people. What is your hope?
What is your hope for people? Who read this book. What do you want them to leave with?
Yeah.
I hope they catch a little bit of a vision of a life of love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness. I hope that, you know, if there's a lot.
You can do a deep dive with this book. And I think it's a book and a workbook in one. So you can go
about as deep as you want to go. And I think that there are some conversations in there. Like
there's some places where you can really, I've told some folks already, you can spend some
significant time there. But I think for most,
if they close the book and there's some sense of...
I want to go on this journey and I want to be, I want to, I want to invite others into this journey
of becoming more loving, more joyful.
as long as it takes. And I want those to be honest conversations. If it invites people into that
kind of vision of being with one another and calling one another to more, I'll be happy.
I think I have bigger hopes because there's a larger conversation at stake around a massive
reckoning moment that I think we're in in the church.
There are things that I want to see. the church, small C and big C take really,
really seriously. But I think for most of us, it's so complicated sometimes.
And with psychology books in particular, it's like, oh, do I have to learn all this new language to
figure out who God is calling me to be? I hope it simplifies some things for them.
Well, I just want to say, I think... I love what you just said.
And I think if you're someone who, I think the book serves two purposes. One, if you're someone who
is like, and Chuck, you're one of my favorite thinkers and writers and humans in this space.
I'm aware, if you're someone, I'm aware that I'm part of this, the soup that we're being cooked in
culturally. And I want to work on my own character. Fantastic book. That's how I approached it.
I loved it. And I also think it's helpful for folks who are trying to navigate, how do I trust
someone again after being betrayed? There's a lot of really good tips there. So it's a fantastic
book. I'm so grateful for the work that you do. I know there's a cost to it to put so much into the
world, but we're grateful for you. Yeah, grateful for you too. And thanks for a good conversation
as always. Thanks, Chuck. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You.
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Have you ever wondered whether you're truly burned out or simply depleted? And what happens when, in the process of meeting everyone else's needs, you lose touch with important parts of yourself?
In this episode, Dr. Alison Cook sits down with Dr. Henry Cloud, clinical psychologist, leadership expert, and co-author of the trailblazing book, Boundaries, to explore how we can recognize burnout, restore our emotional health, and reconnect with the parts of ourselves we may have lost along the way.
Drawing from his new book, Renewal: 90 Daily Readings for Restoring Your Mind, Your Boundaries, Your Relationships, and Your Peace, Dr. Cloud shares why rest alone isn't always enough, how our emotions signal when something is out of balance, and why healthy relationships help us become more fully ourselves.
Dr. Cloud also shares a powerful personal story about his own childhood that you do not want to miss.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
*The difference between depletion and burnout
*How to tell when your rhythms and boundaries need attention.
*Why structure is so important, and how to set intentional rhythms of rest and renewal
*How safe relationships can help us reclaim lost parts of ourselves.
About Dr. Henry Cloud:
Dr. Henry Cloud is a clinical psychologist, leadership expert, and New York Times bestselling author. He has written or co-written more than 45 books, including the bestselling Boundaries, with nearly 20 million copies sold worldwide. Drawing on his experience in clinical psychology, executive coaching, and leadership consulting, Dr. Cloud helps individuals and organizations strengthen relationships, develop healthy boundaries, and reach their full potential. He works with CEOs, leadership teams, and executives to improve performance, leadership, and organizational culture.
More Resources:
Dr. Henry Cloud is the author of a new book: Renewal: 90 Daily Readings for Restoring Your Mind, Your Boundaries, Your Relationships, and Your Peace
Other books of Dr. Henry Cloud
Listeners get exclusive access to the first 2 chapters of Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul.
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here.
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Transcript
Episode 230
Dr. Henry Cloud
Structure is necessary for life. You have a skeleton for a reason.
It's got to hold this thing up. And when we have structural breakdowns, either in our personality,
our character, our lives, the way time and rhythms go, something's gonna...
be okay. How do emotions give us a clue our rhythms are off?
Well, it can go in a couple of different directions. I know for me, it sounds funny. How do your
emotions clue you in? They clue me in when I don't feel them anymore. He said, God just told me
that when you were a child, something happened to you that made you afraid to speak in front of
people and that you've avoided it ever since then. And God wants you to begin to speak for him now.
And he's going to open some doors and you're to walk through them. And I remember sitting there
going, oh my gosh, you see us.
Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Allison and welcome back to this week's deep dive episode of The Best of You.
I am so excited to share today's conversation with you. I wanted to give you a fun fact,
a little behind the scenes. This interview felt really meaningful to me for a really personal
reason years ago. When my friend and co-author Kimberly Miller,
with whom I wrote Boundaries for Your Soul, we were working on the book. We hadn't yet titled it
Boundaries for Your Soul. We were spending a lot of time. We'd kind of figured out what we wanted
to do. We'd figured out the concepts. We'd studied the model and we'd kind of figured out how we
wanted to bring the integration piece on it. But we were trying to figure out how to describe what
we were trying to teach people in a way that would be practical and accessible and even familiar.
Because as we all know, the soul can feel like sort of murky terrain.
tend to what I can't even see. And a lot of us haven't known or been taught how to tend to these
inner places. As we were thinking about it, I remember so vividly one night we were just kind of
wrestling and talking and whiteboarding and putting ideas on a piece of paper.
And suddenly we just realized after, you know, been working on this for a while, we're like, it's
all about boundaries. It's about differentiating, right? Differentiating from yourself and a part
of yourself is very similar. We actually call it intrapsychic differentiation, which means you're
differentiating from yourself and a part of yourself that's carrying an emotion, right? I am not my
anger. I can connect with my anger. process is very similar to what we,
when we talk about interpersonal differentiation, right? I am not my spouse.
I am not my friend. I am not my child. We are interpersonally differentiated and that
differentiation to be healthy, right? It's actually a healthy thing includes both separateness and
closeness, right? And this is all about
boundaries. Boundaries aren't built to keep people out. Boundaries aren't built to keep parts of
ourselves out. Boundaries are what helps us stay differentiated from other people so that we don't
become enmeshed with them. We don't take them on in ways that aren't healthy. Boundaries are the
word that describe that process of staying differentiated. What I feel may be different from what
my spouse feels, what my experience of something might be different than what my child's experience
of that is. That's a boundary between us. It's beautiful. It's part of how God made us.
This is not about distance. Boundaries are actually about closeness. I'm going way off onto a
tangent to say that when Kim and I realized that what we were trying to do with boundaries for your
soul really was about boundaries, we immediately thought of the groundbreaking, trailblazing book
that has helped so many of us understand this idea. boundaries by Dr. John Townsend and Dr.
Henry Cloud. And in that moment of realization, I remember where we were in that moment when we
realized this was really boundaries work. We were essentially taking Cloud and Townsend's
boundaries work and applying it to our inner lives, to our souls, to the parts of ourselves.
We just knew that that was the direction that boundaries for your soul needed to go. And that
connection immediately made us feel like we wanted to get the blessing of Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr.
John Townsend. We wanted to let them know, A, how much there were. could have influenced us? And B,
could we have their blessing to use boundaries in the title for boundaries for your soul? Long
story short, they so generously and so graciously gave us their blessing to use boundaries in the
title of boundaries for your soul. Dr. John Townsend ended up also endorsing it. They encouraged
us. And I could not be more grateful to today's guest, Dr.
Henry Cloud, as well as to Dr. John Townsend for not only their trailblazing work and their
longevity of work, but also the way that they encouraged us in terms of boundaries for your soul.
So all of that to say that when I saw that Dr. Henry Cloud had a new book coming out this fall, I
was thrilled to have the opportunity to sit down and have this conversation. Dr.
Cloud's new book is called Renewal. 90 daily readings for restoring your mind,
your boundaries, your relationships. and your peace. I just loved this conversation with him. We
cover a lot of different topics. One of the things we talk about that I found really helpful is he
makes a distinction between depletion and burnout. And he also shares some of the rhythms he has
built into his own life over decades of doing highly demanding work so as to avoid burnout in his
own life. We talk about the warning signs for burnout, how you can notice them through emotional
awareness. We talk about simple rhythms, simple practices. to keep your soul grounded.
And then we get into a really fascinating conversation about what happens when we become so
overloaded or so adapted to what other people need from us that we actually start to lose access to
parts of our own soul. And this ties into the conversation about burnout. We might lose access to
our ability to be playful. We might lose access to a truth-telling part of us.
We might lose access to a feeling. part of us, where we get numb, we might lose access to a part of
us that knows how to rest, that knows how to slow down, that also might know how to take a risk or
to shift into a higher gear. I loved this conversation and I loved getting a little bit of a window
into Dr. Cloud's life. He closes with a remarkable story from his own life about a part of himself
he thought he had lost. And I won't spoil the story for you, but it was just beautiful and how it
brought together so much of what we talk about in this episode. conversation was such a gift to me
personally, and I think you'll find so much wisdom in it. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr.
Henry Cloud.
Dr. Henry Cloud, I am so thrilled to have you with us today. This feels like a long time coming and
I'm so glad you're here now. Well, it's good to be here. You do a lot of interviews, but it's rare
that I get to be the patient on your couch. So you're going to fix me here,
right? No, I don't think that's the case, but you've helped so many of us.
And I'm just really excited about this newest book,
which is really a devotional, if I'm understanding correctly.
You've written about a lot of topics. You had a fantastic book out last year about your faith and
why you believe in what. That was sort of a new book. for me i never you know i'll write books i
try to stay in my lane and write books that i know something about but i never had written one
specifically about the faith yeah and and why why i believe this stuff it's actually written i
wrote it to my friends who are non-believers and to tell them my story of why i believe and all
the reasons i believe and that's what that but so it was a different journey for me Yeah, I love
that kind of seeing what you're coming up with. I'm curious what made you decide what in what in
your own life, what in your own world made you want to slow down and write about renewal and
stillness. And, you know, you're someone who I think we see as very prolific.
You've put a lot out into the world. What made you want to write this book now?
Oh, gosh. Well, you know, in some ways.
I always try to write about something that I've experienced. People ask me sometimes,
how long does it take you to write a book? And I go, I don't know, because I don't write books.
I'm not an author. That's not what I do. And they go, what? And I go, no, I'm a practitioner. And I
spend all of my waking hours in the war rooms with CEOs and businesses and when I was doing
clinical work with people working through stuff. I always say the work writes the books because
it's what I've studied and seen and why. So it's not theory to me. This is real stuff that I know
is true and works. And one of the things that you see in more and more,
and everybody, you know, we can blame it correctly. So a lot of the bombardment we have of,
you know, technology. And now there's no such thing as going to work and to home.
It kind of all goes together. And it's hard for people to stop.
And from a science perspective, if you don't stop,
you're in trouble. I mean, it's going to hurt your performance, it's going to hurt your health,
everything else. But also for a fulfillment and satisfaction of life.
It's an important thing. And so I thought, you know, with the attention span being what it is
today, small snippets would be the best. So it's little daily lessons,
and it includes, you know, obviously guided by the scriptures, but each topic is something about
what I call the pie of life, which is your clinical well-being, how you're feeling,
depression, anxiety, fears, joy, happiness, all that. And the second piece of the pie is your
relationships, family, marriage, friends, extended family work. And then the third one is our
performance, reaching our goals and dreams. And so every day is a little lesson, something to take
with you that day and calm down and sit before God and allow him to do what he wants to do in you
and then take it out in the big world. I love that.
I love that your work flows out of your...
everyday interactions with real people. And you see that, that practicality of it. Theory is one
thing, but to really actually be able to apply it. You talk in the book about this idea that we all
live on a sort of bank account, a checking account of emotional energy and that we don't want to
dip in to the reserves that we also need.
to have. I love this idea, right? That we have enough for the day, but then we also need to have
some reserves for when we need those emotional reserves.
What do you notice in your work with high-performing leaders, with all sorts of leaders? You know,
we're this audience, we are all kinds of, you know, there's all kinds of ways to be high
-performing, whether you're raising, you know, kids, whether you're, you know, running a business,
whether you're running a ministry, whether you're a therapist, we have a lot of therapists
listening. How do we know when we're tapping into those reserves in a way that isn't sustainable?
What are the signs? One of the big signs and probably the biggest sign is between being depleted
and running out of gas and all that and burnout. One of the big signs is does rest solve it for
you? We're designed to run out of gas. That's why God gave six days and a seventh day of rest.
That's why he gave days and nights. That's why he gave you circadian rhythms and metabolic rhythms
that we have to obey or we are going to, you know, be in trouble. But sometimes people unplug and
they rest, and that doesn't do it for them. And that says something else is going on, some dynamic
in your life or something else that is sort of like you pull into a gas station and you fill it up
with gas and the car still won't go. Something's eating away at the equipment at that point.
But the big thing is, it's important to unplug and get back with the design of life.
You know, I always begin with a created order in any topic and ask, how did God design for this to
work? And if you're not resting, you're trying to fly a plane without knowing the laws of physics.
What
are some of, if you don't mind my asking, Because I'm just so aware of the wisdom in the room.
What are some of the rhythms of rest that have helped to sustain you? You know,
you continue to put out, to be productive, to keep going.
And that's not always the case with folks who start out young.
What are some, I mean, you know, you see people burn out. And I've recently had.
A moment of that where I've had to be like, oh, I got to slow down. I'm not what I'm doing is not
sustainable. I've got to reconfigure. I had to scale back. What has helped you? What rhythms have
helped you stay in a sustainable way? One of the first things is you got to you got to learn to see
the signals of when you need it. Because and I have a problem with that because I'm just my friends
that know me and. My wife and other people call me the, what was it,
the, who was the bunny, the battery bunny? The Energizer bunny.
Energizer bunny. Yeah. It's like I can just go and go and go and go. And for some reason,
I never kind of, you know, okay, what's next? You got a plane in the morning at 5 o'clock? Okay,
time to go. And do it again. And I don't feel it in that way.
What I've learned, my signal is I can feel it. I can feel it in my head.
I start to feel, you know those little snow globes where you shake them and then you have to let
them be still so everything calms down? I can actually feel cognitive overload.
I can feel when I just had too much internal demand,
external demand, and I know, oops, if I don't watch this,
you know. I'm going to, something's going to happen. So that's what I see first.
But to prevent that, and this is where I think you're going, Allison, to prevent it, a big word
that everybody should embrace and love. is the word structure.
Structure is necessary for life. You have a skeleton for a reason.
It's got to hold this thing up, right? And when we have structural breakdowns,
either in our personality, our character, our lives, the way time and rhythms go,
something's going to not be okay. So what I've learned to do is I've got a pretty good kind of
estimation of when that breakdown is going to start happening and i will structure and build in
even from the previous year um unplugged times yeah and um when when the kids were home we have two
girls in their 20s now but when they were home we would always gather we'd have family meetings you
know every week but but at one of them in the end of the year i would review with them
Because I travel with my work some. And I always let my kids set the number of how many nights I
would be away per month.
I would ask them, when does this start to get to you? And usually,
you know, at some age when they got aware, they'd say, I don't know, you know. Four or five is not
a big deal. Y'all go out to dinner and stuff like that. But if it gets much more than that, I
don't like it. And so I always had a rule of five to six nights a month.
And that was set by the kids. But in those meetings, what we would do and what I would do is I
would schedule.
There was going to be one big time for the family to get away. you know,
the vacation. But I would do quarterly rhythms of getaways.
Tori and I would have specific date nights that were scheduled and structured. And even if you hate
each other, you're going out that night, the babysitter's coming, you know. Because the word
structure, actually the etymology of it, it means to build something. You know, structure is a
building, right? So it's very important that we have these You don't have to be anal about this,
but you have some sort of things that you have planned, and you know that you're going to obey
those structures. I'm a lifelong competitive golfer, and there has to be that time built in.
I have a morning time where I try to get everything quiet,
and that's my quiet time. We structure things, Tori and I together.
We have a Doberman. She loves going long walks. So it varies, but the point is you have to do it.
And the other thing that's a real important unplugging time for me is I've got a guys group that I
meet with on a regular cadence. And then I've got an annual guys hunting trip that I go on.
a few golf outings with my buddies and so the point being you know everybody's got what does it for
you yeah so that's what i try to do i i think i love that word structure i love that and that can
also be the signal when you start to i noticed when i had to take a little step back recently um my
work was creeping into my after dinner hours yeah and i was losing some of my hobbies to your point
about golf and and that Like, those hobbies aren't just filling time.
Those are restorative. You know, I had to get back to, oh, no, after dinner I bake,
which for me is a sort of unwind. It's kind of getting the snow globe to settle.
It doesn't, yeah, those rhythms really matter. And that can become a sign if we're creeping into
those rhythms, those norms that we're out of balance.
I love that. All right.
And this doesn't have to be lofty and spiritual and otherworldly.
I have to, and the story will tell you this, I have to have some kind of mindless movie or show
that I'm engaged in that gets me out of it all. And for me,
it's always kind of somebody's got to be killing somebody in some CIA espionage type. But the point
is, Anything that will take me fully out of everything else. Yeah.
Yeah. That's kind of what replenishes. And there's research on that, that that that kind of that's
not just there's something happening in the brain when you you disengage and you kind of that soft
focus is really healthy for renewal. I love that you're mentioning that it doesn't have to be
lofty. You also talk about you've touched on this a little bit about emotions.
as signals. Talk to us a little bit about how you've seen in your clients,
in yourself and others. How do emotions give us a clue?
Our rhythms are off. Well, it can go in a couple of different directions. I know, I know for me,
it sounds funny. How do your emotions clue you in? They clue me in when I don't feel them anymore.
Oh, yeah. When I start to get numb, you know,
kind of. Going through the motions, maybe feeling detached a little bit. That's a big signal to me.
The other ones, you know, if you kind of categorize these, Allison, I think the next grouping would
be the protest emotions. You know, we're built by God to,
and this is where boundaries come in, it's where your whole nervous system is wired in this way.
When something intrudes, and it could be work, it could be people, it could be whatever, but when
there's an intrusion, our system activates to fight against that or to flight away from it.
When I start to feel those, it's kind of when you get short with people or you get easily agitated
or things bother you that you can't let it roll off your back. That's kind of a signal. You're
irritated and overstressed. Or the flight part of it is when you see yourself wanting to run away,
wanting to get away. The emotion of wanting to escape in some way. People do that in various ways.
Yeah. Yeah. And the emotion itself is a cue. It doesn't mean something is way off,
but it is that yellow light to pay attention, to pay attention, to notice.
That's why it's so important, you know, and a lot of times in the Christian world in some goofy
ways. We've really put the mind and the intellect over the emotions as if these little kids,
okay, they're okay to have, but you better rule over them with your thinking. And people don't
understand that's not how God wired us. In fact, a lot of our goofy thinking is coming from our
emotions. In other words... people are into cognitive therapy,
for example, we know that your thinking can affect how you feel. But what they don't recognize is
that how you're feeling affects your thinking. Because our limbic system, our emotional wiring,
actually... produces its own way of seeing the world, its own thoughts, its own paradigms, its own
maps. And a lot of people's real, even their belief systems and, you know, ways that they see other
people, ways they see the world, that can be coming from trauma or emotions that aren't dealt with.
And so they're signals, you know, and like you're saying, we need to listen to them. I loved...
Dr. Cloud, you talk about in this dovetail so, so much with the work we talk about a lot on the
podcast, because my background with boundaries for your soul is this inner, these inner parts of
us. And another thing you talk about is losing access to valuable parts of yourself.
And, and that, and that we can seal these parts of us.
off, and that renewal is about allowing Jesus to help us re-engage these parts of us.
This is kind of how I'm, you know, this is a lot of what we talk about on the podcast. I'm curious,
and I think that's such a, if we're having to, it kind of gets at what you were saying about
numbing, but if we're having to kind of shut down. a part of us,
that that's a, that's a signal. How have you seen that again? I like hearing kind of how, how did
you arrive at that and how have you, you seen that? Cause it's a little more, that could be a
little bit more hidden, I think. So how do you notice that?
How have you seen that in people? And we may be unaware that it's happening, but it's really,
this is a, this is a big area, Alison, that you bring up that we don't address oftentimes enough.
You know, we have a lot of different parts.
God has created us, you know, as the scripture says, we're fearfully and wonderfully made. And we
have many, many, many different parts because they're in his image. God has even different names
for his different parts. You know, you got the warrior and the healer and the provider and all of
it. You look in the Bible, there's all these different names. Well, those apply to different parts
of him. But God is one. Yes. And that's what you got to remember. I often have said God is a
multiple personality who doesn't split. Yeah. Yeah. And what that means is he has access to all of
himself. Yeah. At all times. And when he's speaking from one part of himself,
it's not compartmentalized from other parts of himself. So if he's speaking truth,
for example. It's not split off from his grace. Yeah. So he's going to...
Yeah, they're always integrated. They're always integrated. Even if one is leading, yeah. What
happens to us? Well, we get compartmentalized or split. And sometimes some people split off their
truth-telling parts. Yeah. And they're giving grace to everybody, but they can't grab that truth
-telling part. And what do they become? They become enablers. They're graceful and giving, but they
have no limits. And then some people have access to the limit part and,
you know, they're sitting back, but they're angry and they're not gracious when they do it. They're
not speaking the truth and love. And so what a lot of healing is about is,
you know, Jesus said, I came to seek and to save that which was lost.
Now, certainly that applies to the whole world, but it is a statement about redemptive work that he
does. He's looking for, seeking, to save.
That word literally in the Greek means to heal that which was lost.
And lost doesn't mean he can't find them. It means broken, beyond repair. And we can lose touch
with parts of ourselves because of trauma. You know, there are aspects that are wounded and they
actually exit time. I mean, how do you get PTSD post-traumatic as if it's happening now because it
hasn't had the effects of time to heal it?
Yeah. And when you bring those wounded parts back into time where...
ingredients can work on them. Then you begin a process of healing and those parts actually get
restored and they get reintegrated. And so that's an important part.
We all need to be in some sort of process that, as Proverbs says,
you know, a person's heart is deep waters and the person of wisdom draws them out.
And we've got to be in a place that is, and I always start with this, melting us enough.
Because you're not going to get to lost parts if there's not empathic grace that's making you feel
safe enough to where you let go of whatever's guarding that part from emerging.
That's why when you get in conversations with people, they start to talk about something, and
instead of giving them an answer, oh, it's going to be okay, Romans 828, this will be good, they're
in heaven now, or whatever, you empathize. Yeah. And they just feel your presence.
What happens? The tears begin to come. Yeah. Because that safety has melted the need to
compartmentalize or the defenses. It's also holding up that woundedness when they can't hold it up
themselves. And they're integrating. Yeah. Well, we better always all be in that process.
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I
love how you describe that again. Even if we think about burnout,
I know for me, and I'm just realizing this as we're talking and as I'm thinking about this book,
I just put together that I was losing the playful part of myself because I was so focused on work.
And that part of me that just could be whimsical or could play hooky for a couple of hours or,
you know, and that someone else's quiet noticing,
not harshness, but I miss that. I miss that. You know, kind of what,
oh. Oh, what's happening? It's your right, that melting of, oh, I don't want to lose that.
How do I cultivate that? How do I make sure that I'm not so into this kind of focused, productive
part of me that I'm losing access? And I just love that you brought that into this conversation.
It's not all or nothing. It's bringing more of who we are online as we are made in the image of
God. I really love that. I think that's powerful. And parts really get lost.
They do. From wounding. Parts get lost from prohibitions to feel them.
You know, you grow up in a hungry way. If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything.
You know, well, okay, what do you want me to do with that part of me? It doesn't want to give a
compliment right now. It wants to say that's not okay. So we can be talked out of them in so many
ways. And it's really important to reclaim another one. This is a hobby horse or it's not a hobby
horse. What's the word? I'm trying to think of the right way to say it. It's kind of a pet peeve.
Oh, let's hear it. We want to hear it. A lot of times now we have,
and I'm not saying these aren't helpful. They're very helpful in some ways to get people talking to
each other, get them looking at themselves, all that. But a lot of these typology tests,
assessment tools, people are using in the wrong way.
Now, I'll give you an example. The Myers-Briggs, for example. Everybody knows the Myers-Briggs,
right? Introvert, extrovert, thinking, feeling, all this stuff. Well,
what they do is they take it and they say, oh, I'm a T. Thinking instead of being an F where you're
a feeler. Well, what they don't understand, and I bet a lot of them don't even know this because
they would really have problems with it if they did, but that was built on Jungian psychology.
Carl Jung had a theory that there were these polarities, which actually was the
compartmentalization, of we are both thinkers and feelers, as God is,
right? Yes. Well, what happens is somebody splits off their feeling part. Now I'm a T,
and they wear it like that's how God created me.
Jung's theory, and again, I'm not waving the flag for you, I'm just telling you where this came
from, that you're to integrate. Yes. The thinkers need to get in touch with their feelings.
Yes. And if all you do is feel, you better think about it before you act out that feeling, et
cetera, et cetera. Yes. And so we need to find ourselves in these.
Yeah. These anal OCD, rigid, black and white rule people, they need to get over it and free up and
let some people breathe. And other people need to add a little bit of structure to their freedom
and know what day it is. So it's important that we're developing all of who God creates you to be.
Yeah, I love that. A personality type or even a diagnosis is not an identity. It's not all of who
we are. I love that. And we love hearing your Dr.
Henry Cloud pet peeves. I love it. And again, my pet peeve is not that people use the instruments.
The instruments can be great ways of understanding each other, how you respond to each other, the
best way to respond to each other. I guess you said it even better. It shouldn't be an identity.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who wants to go through life being one of those polarities?
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's just, it's not okay. And humility is a wholehearted person.
Humility is, oh, wow. I favor this. Great.
Wonderful. That maybe I have this strength. I need to work on how do I, how do I develop?
this other part of me. And if you think about healthy relationships, right? If a spouse is like,
well, no, I'm sorry. I'm just a T or I'm just an introvert. I'm just this. There's not much you can
do with that. Whereas the humility of this is my bent. This is how I'm, you know,
there's truth in that. This is my, my wiring. And I, I, I want to, you know, to the best of my
ability, you know, kind of fill out as a full human. I love how you're kind of giving us the, the
integrated God, but. Many of us have only encountered one part of God through a parent,
maybe through a harshness, right? How do we begin, if that's our story,
right? We only know one part of this God because that's all we ever were exposed to through a
caregiver. How do we begin to recognize that and rediscover the fullness of God?
Well, that's a lifelong journey. It's a big question. Yeah. You know, it's interesting that you say
that about the attachment aspects of this. I wrote a book about my journey last year.
I never had done that because I wanted to... It was actually written to my non-Christian friends
about faith and why I believe. It's called Why I Believe. And it was,
you know, about that journey because it is a... journey.
And as you're pointing out, that journey begins in attachment.
Now what does that mean? Well, it means exactly what David said in the Psalms.
You know, you're talking about how to know God, right? What David said was, oh,
when I was a baby, my mom taught me theology. Or my mom taught me the catechism.
Or, no, that's not what he said. What he said was, God, you taught me to trust you at my mother's
breast. Okay? Long before there's words.
Long before the secondary processes of the brain begin to develop, it even has language.
It even has symbolic representations of what we're feeling or experiencing. What's happening is the
nature of that connection is being wired into the limbic system, which becomes a map.
And psychologists call it a schema or structures or whatever it is. It kind of becomes the pathway.
that relationship, pain, experience, and all this other stuff runs on.
So what happens is if we have early attachments that take us down a certain path that don't include
attaching to the wholeness of it. See, that's why it's really good to have integrated parents.
Yeah. Because you're developing attachment to somebody who can,
be nurturing when you need it, who can be firm when you need it, who can prod you to go past where
you feel safe and grow and take risk and fall down, and who can protect you from your wanting to
take too many risks, who can see your talents and call them out, who can play with you and all of
this. That's what good parents do. And this attachment builds all of that equipment.
Well, this is not rocket science. To fix something,
we got to fix something in the way that it's designed to be done in the beginning. Yeah.
Which means you are, and we know this from all sorts of neuroscience and other things,
but especially the scriptures, we are formed and developed in relationship,
period. We need, you're going to find your own experience. What does a baby do?
They're experiencing something, and mom... and gives she coos has this tone and all of that and
you've got mirror neurons that are learning she is actually naming your experience for you without
words and you learn what it feels like to hurt what it feels like to be have joy what it feels like
to have you know hunger and desire and fear and all of that but you learn it in relationship so
you're not going to go find yourself by sitting on a rock in the woods
Solitude is really important.
Jesus sought solitude. We're to seek solitude. But when you're in solitude,
you should at least be with yourself.
And if you can't access yourself, solitude is just going to further an experience of isolation.
But to find ourselves, we have to find that in relationship. So you're going to rediscover these
parts of you. You've got to get in very safe relational settings. that you can open up to and
rediscover what you've lost and have people see that. We have to be seen to exist.
We have to be seen to grow. Who sees you? And a lot of people have lost many parts of themselves
because they're not seen in their closest relationships. They're not even noticed how they feel.
And so they lose touch of all of that. And this happens a lot of times in marriage. The loneliest
places you can be sometimes is in a relationship. And couples need to work on that.
So that's also the way I think, that's the beginning of how we reclaim ourselves. Yeah,
I love that. I think that's powerful and just a word that's going to track with someone listening
today, right? Where are you seen? Where are you seen? I think that's kind of the start of,
and also how we... connect with God, right? That being seen-ness.
I want to just close. The God who sees me. Yes. Yes.
That's a quote, right? Yes. And so often that felt experience of that comes through that loving,
safe presence of another person, right? And we just don't know how much God sees us.
And if we're not... Putting ourselves in places where we can experience that.
I know we're running out of time. I remember one day when I really woke up to how deeply God sees
us.
And I put this in my book, why I believe it's got a whole section in there on miracles that I've
experienced. But one of them was... When I was in the seventh grade, I had kind of a meltdown,
giving an oral book report in front of the class. I got flustered and started studying, and I
couldn't do it. And the teacher said, sit down. And she said, you'll never be successful in front
of the class. You'll never be successful in life if you can't speak in front of people. So you can
forget ever going to law school or something like that. I mean, she literally said this. I talk
about getting shut down. I just couldn't do it after that. And all through the rest of junior high
school, high school, college, I never, ever would accept any invitation to speak.
And when I tried to even do it, I just couldn't do it. Well, roll the clock forward,
and I was in my mid-20s when I first went into practice. And I would get asked by churches all the
time, you come teach a class on... stress or you know and i would always say no i don't do that and
i literally didn't do it ever i'm in the gym working out
after you know you shower and you go to the you're in the locker room and all this i look up and
there's this big naked guy walking up to me i mean and he's like 100 feet tall it turned out he
played for the la ramps but he walked i didn't know who he was he didn't know i was And he walks up
to me and he says, are you a Christian? And that's a weird question for a big naked guy standing in
front of you. And I go, yeah, why? And he said, well, God just told me to tell you something.
And I said,
okay, I'm a psychologist too. I can help you with those voices that you're hearing.
I love it. I can give you a little medicine for that. But he said, no, seriously,
I'm a pastor. He told me the church. It was a legit church. He said,
God just told me to take some. I said, all right. So we went and sat down.
He said, here's what the Lord says. And he did not know me at all.
He said, God just told me that when you were a child, a kid, I said a kid, something happened to
you that made you afraid to speak in front of people.
And that you've avoided it ever since then.
And God wants you to begin to speak for him now. And he's going to open some doors and you're to
walk through them.
And I remember, this is a long, I wrote about it in the book of many other stories like that, but I
went back to my office and I remember sitting there going, oh my gosh,
you, you see us all
the time. Yeah.
Next week I get an invitation to go speak to a small group of pastors. And I knew I had to do it.
I mean, last time God told somebody to speak, they didn't. They got swallowed by a whale, right?
Remember Jonah? So I got to do this. And I was petrified.
And I asked a friend of mine who's a prayer warrior and a speech therapist to help me.
And she
let me practice it with her a hundred times. Wow. And then she actually went. She sat in the front
row and I gave the talk to her. I don't want to make a long story short, but that was, and I
stumbled through it and I barely made it. It took about a year and a half for me to get to where
that wasn't an issue anymore. Now, I mean, not to be weird, but I speak in arenas, you know, like
lots and lots of people and it doesn't bother me at all.
But here's the point.
That part of me had been lost.
God sees the parts of you that have been lost.
He wants to seek and to save that which was lost. So I would just encourage you be seeking him and
asking him find those parts, even things I don't even know about myself.
I never knew I'd do some of the stuff I do now because I was out of touch. God wants to find you.
Dr. Henry Cloud. Thank you. The new book is called Renewal,
90 Daily Readings for Restoring Your Mind, Your Boundaries, Your Relationships, and Your Peace. And
you have... just for decades now been such a trusted voice for so many of us.
And I'm grateful to you. I'm grateful for the work that, that takes,
uh, inwardly. And the cost to that, but also to just your faithfulness,
even just to that moment that you just shared with us. Thank you for sharing that with us. It's
meant a lot. You've just been, again, just such a steady,
trustworthy voice. And I'm grateful to you. And I see what that takes.
And I'm grateful for your time today. Well, thanks. I hope it's been helpful.
It's a pleasure to be on with you and God bless you for all you're doing. Thank you for joining me
for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to
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you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.
.webp)
What happens when we finally get quiet enough to encounter ourselves, God, and what’s underneath all the noise?
In this episode, Dr. Alison Cook is joined by former pastor and New York Times bestselling author John Mark Comer to talk about his new book, Into the Quiet, and the surprisingly difficult practice of silence and solitude. They talk about what happens when we stop filling every empty space with our phones, work, entertainment, and distraction. What comes up in the quiet isn’t always what we expect.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Why getting quiet can be difficult but what we can discover when we finally slow down
* How silence and solitude can help us become more present to ourselves and to God
* How to recognize the difference between healthy reflection and rumination
* When we’re meeting a part of our own soul vs. the enemy of our soul
* How to start practicing quietness in small, manageable steps
As John Mark says, “The point is just to offer ourselves more deeply to God.”
About John Mark Comer:
John Mark Comer is a teacher and a writer. He has his Masters in Biblical and Theological Studies and a Teacher in Residence at Vintage Church LA. He is a New York Times bestselling author of seven books. His most recent book is Into the Quiet: Following Jesus in a World of Noise.
More Resources:
Into the Quiet: Following Jesus in a World of Noise by John Mark Comer
Other books by John Mark Comer
The Practicing the Way nonprofit
Past episode with John Mark Comer and Dr. Alison Cook on the Best of You is here.
Dr. Alison Cook with John Mark Comer on the Rule of Life Podcast
Listeners get exclusive access to the first 2 chapters of Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul.
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
Don't forget to browse this week's sponsors, who make it possible for me to bring you these resources for free + provide you with additional discounts!
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Transcript
Episode 229
John Mark Comer
Most of us have outsourced the management of our consciousness to our phones. I can't sit at a red
light without checking my phone. I've come to feel that noise is just as much of a threat to the
flow of love through our bodies as hurry is and functions in a similar, different,
but similar kind of way. What does it mean to go into the quiet? And then number two, what happens
when we do? All the great ones went into the desert and the desert teaches by taking away.
I am used to, I've been socially conditioned in the West and by the Western church to learn by
addition. But there's this whole other dimension of learning by subtraction. You begin to realize
why people left everything behind to go out into the desert. Maybe they knew something that we
don't know.
Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You. And we are
going deep today. We're going into the quiet, into those moments of being alone with your own self
and with God. John Mark Comer is back on the podcast today. He's one of our favorite all-time
guests. He's here to talk about his brand new book. It's called Into the Quiet. And this
conversation is just rich and powerful, and it went a lot of places I didn't expect it to go.
In his new book, Into the Quiet, John Mark is asking a... that seems simple on the surface,
but actually is really deep. It's what happens when we finally get quiet enough to encounter the
reality of ourselves, of God, and the world? around us. And the truth is getting quiet in this way
isn't easy. It's not always peaceful at first. It's not always intuitive.
In fact, there's a lot of forces working against us getting quiet in the way John Mark is talking
about today. And it's not just our phones, although that's a big part of it. Sometimes when we
finally create those moments to get still, to get quiet with ourselves and with God,
what we find isn't always pleasant. Sometimes what we notice is exhaustion or fear or shame or
grief, or sometimes we just notice that immediate tug back to distraction,
right? This realization of how difficult it is to become fully present is a lot of what we're going
to talk about in today's episode. John Mark is really candid about the fact that he thinks
distraction may be one of the greatest threats. to our spiritual lives. And we talk about why
there's so many pulls on our attention and what we can do in practical ways to learn to get still,
to learn to be quiet, and what that actually means in our real lives, why it's more than just being
introverted, why it's something that we all need to be practicing. We talk about what
contemplatives call the unloading of the unconscious. I love this term that happens when we find
moments of stillness in our soul. starts to rise up. We talk about how to distinguish healing
reflection in the quiet from rumination, right? From just those spinning thoughts that don't help
us. And we talk about this intersection between psychology, what's happening inside of us that we
need to pay attention to and spiritual warfare that's also happening, how we need to be discerning
about what we notice when we get quiet. What I love about this conversation is it's really about
something deeper. It's about learning to become present with oneself and with God,
right? It's learning to be present with a God who is already present with us.
There's a lot of overlaps in what John Mark is saying in this book, Into the Quiet, and what I'm
trying to show you in my work with the secure soul about this idea that God's love is already
present with us. And part of this work is learning to train ourselves to become aware of God
-loving. We get really practical in this conversation about what this practice of solitude and
silence actually looks like, especially in a full life, simple ways to begin, why quiet is more
than simply being alone, and how to start small in a life that has trained us to constantly reach
for more input. This is one of those conversations I think will stay with you. There are so many
nuggets in it about this deeper work of being still. with ourselves and with God.
Please enjoy my conversation with John Mark Comer.
What a beautiful book, Into the Quiet. Thank you. I feel like I'm just getting to talk with a
little bit of a kindred spirit. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm grateful. I'm grateful for your using your
gifts to put some of these ancient but oh so relevant ideas into words for us.
So thank you. Well, that's very kind. I feel the same about you. I think we don't know each other
very well, but we bonded in our few times together over feeling just a little bit about out of
place at times in the wider church culture said very graciously.
And I'd love to on that note of feeling because at times it's both for me when I read a book like
this. Like you've written, it's not just in the Christian culture. It's sometimes in the secular
psychology culture. Yes. Because I think there's something beautiful you're doing here that speaks
to a lot of the work I do, which is one of the people we meet in solitude is ourselves.
Yes. as you lay out but before we and it turns out ourselves is more than one one part one person
yeah there's some complexity there and there's a lot going on in there yeah i love that you laid
out that you meet yourself and you meet the enemy and the two are not necessarily the same there's
there's there's there's some Yeah, it's really powerful. I'd love to start just with kind of a high
level that one of the biggest enemies of our spiritual life is our distractedness.
It's not our doubt. It's our distractedness. What led you to arrive at that conclusion and to want
to focus on solitude? One of the key ingredients to spiritual health.
I'm not a sports guy, but sports psychology, I find interesting. And you know, the saying in sports
psychology that the best players make lousy coaches and what you,
you know, it's like the, the, the B level players generally make good coaches. Yeah.
And, uh, I think when it comes to being a Christian or just a person of love,
I'm certainly B level, if not like EDFG. why level if that makes sense so you know you work in the
field of psychology and you're well aware that personality tests are not true but uh hilariously in
pretty much any personality test if you like google my personality type and whatever movie.
Like, have you seen this? Like, Myers-Briggs is the easiest one because there's 16 personality
types. You can Google the Myers-Briggs personality types and Star Wars or Harry Potter or
whatever, and they will... up 16 characters from those movies that are those 16 types,
right? So inevitably, my type is the super villain.
So like in Star Wars, I'm not even Darth Vader, because we all kind of love him and he comes around
in the end, I'm the Emperor Palpatine. You know, in Harry Potter, I'm he who must not be named.
In Breaking Bad, I'm whatever the guy's name is. I'm always the like evil arch villain.
And I can laugh about that at least now, maybe not originally, but I think just the way I'm wired,
some people are naturally pretty relaxed and present. to the moment and the people in front of them
and love or at least kindness flows through them i think it's important to distinguish between a
loving disposition and a loving character some people have a loving disposition and they've had
four affairs and they've kind of abandoned their children and they're super warm and loving and
kind but they're not loving by character other people are loving by character but they're pretty
persnickety and you know you're like you need to work on your social skills So I am definitely not
loving by disposition. I am kind of a type A, again, Emperor Palpatine by disposition.
And so playfulness aside, you know, I often feel like I limp where others naturally walk in just
living Jesus' vision of human flourishing. Like all people, I was made to become pervaded by love.
too long of an answer to your question but what I'm trying to say Allison is that I get to some of
these things because I think they're true for all people hurry will sabotage the flow of love
through you no matter what your personality is I think I just feel it maybe in a concentrated form
because I feel like I walk with a limp And so I've come to feel that noise,
or what in the emerging scientific literature is called noise pollution, is just as much of a
threat to the flow of love through our bodies as hurry is and functions in a... similar different
but similar kind of way you know in my book on hurry i use the analogy of the airport and how if
you're late for the airport and you're trying to get you know your wife and your three kids or
whatever through security what's flowing through your body is likely not love you know and um
however many years later from that book I am. I would love to tell you that I am now just Jesus Zen
in the airport. But the reality is airports are still a bad place for me. I now get to the airport
much earlier than I used to. So I'm not in a hurry. But just that environment of noise,
stimulation, distraction, people everywhere. Man, it is really hard for me to be peaceful,
present, loving, kind. My wife and I just got back from a trip, a retreat up in Oregon.
We were laughing because, you know, we don't travel great together. There's just tension. I'm just
going to be honest here because I'm guessing there's some other couples. Our best moments are never
in an airport. We're just tense and late and we kind of travel differently by disposition.
And so we just read about this new couples fad called airport divorce. Have you heard about this?
No. It's kind of what it sounds like where these couples will.
get to the airport and they'll get out of their car they'll park the car get out of the uber and
they'll be like okay i'll just i'll meet you in atlanta i'll see you there and they split up at the
airport go through security separately go to the bathroom whatever get their water separately
sometimes even book like separate seats on the same flight and then they meet up like on the other
end of baggage claim just to minimize conflict And I would love to say that my wife and I don't
need that. But the reality is we are in a body, and we should talk about that.
I know it's a big part of your work. And where our body is and how our body is has a profound
impact on what comes through our body and whether it's love or something else.
Yeah. What is it about the noise? So here's a question for you,
for the listener. And you talk about this in the book. I think you say it really well that there's
one thing for you being by yourself is nirvana.
Right. I mean, you wish to just be alone with a stack of books. Same with me. I was just telling
you as we logged on, you know, my husband loves to fly fish. I will go with him, sit in the car,
take the dogs for a walk. We're offline and plow through a stack of books. Right. Yeah. It's love
it. Bliss. There's two things you're saying. This is not just about kind of getting by ourselves.
This is deeper, number one. And number two, it's not just optional. There's something about
unplugging. So for some people, maybe there is more of an innate, I need to get where there's
quiet. I'm extra sensitive to stimuli. I'm a highly sensitive person. All of these categories that
we have. And that's very real. But you're getting at something deeper,
what we're doing. when it's quiet, what we're doing when we finally unplug from the device,
when we finally get away from the urban, you know, the urban jungle of just noise everywhere,
of the airport, that it's not just getting too literal quiet, there's something else happening.
What do you mean by that? What's happening and why is it so important? Yeah, well, a lot is
happening, more than one thing, but I could not agree more. The great tragedy of...
western spirituality is that quiet is thought of as like an optional side discipline for
introverted readers who are into that kind of thing and don't have little children or a demanding
job and happen to be retired or empty nesters or just independently wealthy or whatever and that is
a tragedy Not just for extroverts because then they miss out on this whole dimension. It's a
tragedy for introverts too because then we delude ourselves into thinking that kind of just a
little me time to read and be alone and catch my breath is the spiritual practice of quiet.
And, you know, I just think about it like the twin, you know, in the book I call them the twin
pillars of the two legs by which we walk the way of Jesus. There's no official list of the
practices of Jesus. And so you can group them together by, it's all arbitrary,
right? One way you could just simplify the whole conversation is to say there are essentially two
practices. You could call it contemplation and community, or you could call it... and what happens
in the quiet of prayer and that would include scripture and soul work and living deeply in
relationship with other christians and people and you know i just think about it this way when i'm
speaking to extroverts i'm as introverted as they come i'm off the charts on the introvert level i
love to read i am a sensitive person And while I don't have a need to go for crowds,
I don't need to go to the mall to get some stimulation in. I don't want to make new friends with
the person I'm sitting next to on the plane. I have more than enough friends in my life. But I am
deeply relational because I'm a human being and I'm made to live a deeply relational life.
I might not have the same social appetite as an extrovert, but I have the exact same relational
need and wiring in me as the most extroverted person I know. And so I live a deeply relational life
just with a smaller, deeper circle of persons than an extrovert would. In the same way,
that's how an extrovert, I think, should think about quiet, that they might not have the same need
that I have emotionally to spend hours and hours reading and journaling and thinking all the time.
But they have a deep, inbred, latent, God-ordained,
I think God-designed need in their body and soul. to be in the quiet to be alone with god for
times alone with their own soul and to come to stillness before god and so we we can't think about
this as an introvert extrovert preference thing we have to think about this through the lens of
jesus and both were in the life of jesus and you just see him go back and forth constantly
Mean to you to practice. I love how you say in going into the quiet.
That's the title of the book. So when I was, you know, I've always been drawn to the
contemplatives, to the mystics. And I always am a human and get distracted very easily.
Right. So those things are very real. Right. They're just. Well, I don't I don't struggle with that
all at all, but I've. I hear that's a problem for mere mortals like yourself. You're just immune,
totally immune. So I remember, I don't know, years ago, I was actually living in L.A.
at the time, and a guy was doing, there was a, I don't know,
maybe it was a Catholic church down in Santa Monica, and he was doing these contemplative prayer
evenings, James Finley, where you, and you talk about, I think,
Thomas Keating in the book, some of it was based on that, where you sit in a circle. for an hour
you know he bangs a symbol and then it's quiet and you are just sitting there and and that is one
sort of structured version and i remember you know being a fairly contemplative person a bit avid
reader i can live inside my mind for hours on end you know i literally didn't have relationships
you know that's my last book i was writing about how i basically stayed you know single for years
and years because i could live inside my mind for so long so it's not like this was new to me and
It was a bizarre experience at first. Like you're just sitting there in quiet and immediately my
mind's, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to think? You know, you have all these layers
of what happens. So I guess there's a couple of questions in this question. One, what does it mean
to go into the quiet? Like, is it something we do like that that's structured or is it something we
make into our day-to-day lives, right? And then number two, we'll get to the deeper part,
what happens when we do? I love that you walk us through some of the normalizing of what can happen
when we do.
Yeah, well, let's take the questions one at a time.
Quiet is both a place, and we can't write that part off.
When Jesus would go out into the aramos, is the Greek word that's used, is translated wilderness or
desert or deserted place or solitary place or quiet place. He was actually going in his body to a
place that was literally quiet and free from stimulation other than the beauty of the world as God
made it. And that's really important. And you may not have access to a national park or a
backcountry, you know, or you may not live in a cabin in Wyoming, but you can find your version of
that. It may be just getting up in your living room before your kids are awake. and that means you
know you don't watch as much netflix at night because you need to go to bed in time it may be a
park down the street from your house it may be every saturday you go out hiking it may be there's
lots of different ways you may live somewhere where it's easily conducive to your home or whatever
but it's a place but it's also a practice And it's everything from a few minutes when you first
wake up in the morning to, I tell the story of a kind of once-in-a-lifetime 21-day retreat that
I did, silent retreat in the book. That's an extreme example. But everything in between. I mean,
and you see this in the life of Christ. You see one extreme example of 40 days in the Eremos, in
the wilderness. And every other example is measured in hours, not days. It's early in the morning.
It's an all night in prayer to God. It's a day away. There's no other example that is more than a
few hours. And so there's a whole spectrum there. And like anything, you start small where you are,
not where you feel like you should be. You don't start with some heroic like 21 day solitude
retreat. You know, you start by just, all right, how about I read a psalm in the morning to begin
my day? And I think generally. Like anything, you want to begin with some mental scaffolding to
kind of hold your brain from going crazy. And so historically,
the easiest way to do that is through Lectio Divina, which is just a fancy Latin way of saying
reading the Psalms and passages of Scripture very slowly and prayerly and meditatively.
as a form of prayer more than even of reading, certainly not left-brain analysis of the text,
but a prayerful reading of Scripture. That's historically even how most of the monks do it to this
day. Most monks pray through the Psalter every single month, 150 psalms over 30 days.
And the method that you're referring to that was popularized by Thomas Keating and a few others is
called centering prayer. It's a technique. Contemplative prayer is a much broader category.
Centering prayer is an attempt to do the same thing, but it's not, rather than meditating on
scripture, you kind of focus on your breath or on a prayer word or a prayer phrase like,
come Holy Spirit or Lord Jesus have mercy on me or Father or Jesus or something like that.
And the basic science there, not science, the basic theory there is that God is not an idea or a
feeling. He's a person. He's beyond, he's not less than an idea or a feeling, but he's beyond all
that. And so moving to a type of prayer that goes even beyond our thoughts and even beyond our
feelings into kind of a person to person, will to will communion. And,
you know, one doorway in is through centering prayer where you kind of focus on the breath and the
word. That's pretty hard to do. Hence why you go to a church and there's a guide and an hour is a
long time. An hour does not feel like an hour. As I'm sure you know, an hour of that feels like 10
hours. It's so hard. And so I think a much easier place to start would be the Psalms.
I quote St. Ramald. He was a reformer in the Benedictine order and he has a short rule of life.
In it, he writes, the path you must walk is the Psalms, never leave it. And that's just an anthem
for my life. So the scripture has, God has given us in scripture these poetic prayers that are
designed to slow us down. They can't be read quickly. They're poetry. They're not to be read.
They're to be prayed. And that, I think, is honestly the easiest starting place. If you can just
get away from your phone, get somewhere quiet. and begin to slowly pray the Psalms,
just that, as basic as it sounds, is going to be transformative, you know, for a lot of people.
There's something you're saying that I think is so interesting when we think about attachment as
really being about presence. Yes, attention. Being attuned,
right? And hearing what you're saying, that... a little bit being in the quiet is a little
different than digging into your theological exegesis, which isn't a bad thing. It's a little
different than crying. I'm not sure. Tell me if I'm it might be a little bit different than crying
out all of our emotions, although that might be part of it, that there's something about withness.
So if we're in the scriptures or even if we're journaling, it's a. it's a withness with God.
We're doing it with, we're not, we're not in our brain. We're not in our head. We're not only in
our emotional feelings. There's a place for both of those things, but it's a withness from that
attachment. Am I hearing you right? Oh yeah. I mean. You know more about attachment theory than I
do, but I love the language you used of attunement. I love the work of Dr.
Todd Hall out of Rosemead School of Psychology. And, you know, sometimes people ask, well, what's
the difference between contemplative prayer and, say, mindfulness? and because on the surface they
can kind of look pretty similar like you're sitting there you focus on the breath maybe you have a
word or a phrase you repeat if a thought comes of distraction you just gently let it go it at first
it could kind of sound like is this just christianized mindfulness and i'm i'm a fan of mindfulness
so i don't think it's a bad thing um but It's profoundly different because it is ultimately
relational. It's an experience of the attunement of God. So Todd Hall and others have done the
empirical research on this, and they have now proven in studies that contemplative prayer has a
profoundly healing effect on a person's attachment. capacities in a way that mindfulness doesn't.
So mindfulness has a profound effect on emotional regulation, and contemplative prayer has that
exact same effect, but it doesn't affect the healing of the attachment disorders. And when you are
really prayerfully, quietly experiencing the attunement of God,
not just you're attuning to him, but you realize he's already there attuning to you. You know, this
is one, my favorite definition of contemplative prayer is gazing at God. who is already gazing at
you in love. Once you begin to, Hebrews chapter 12, fix your eyes on Jesus.
Now clearly the eyes there are not like your physical eyes. And it's not just your mental eyes
because it's on the person of Jesus in Hebrews 12, not just the idea or the historical figure or
the doctrine of Jesus and the doctrine of justification. No, fix your eyes on the living person of
Christ who's alive in the heavenly tabernacle. Fix your eyes there. That's what's happening in
these forms of prayer. You're turning your inward gaze of the eyes of your heart, as Paul calls
them, onto the living person of Christ, and you're actually experiencing it. living presence by the
Spirit. Not just an idea, historical figure, doctrine, yes to all of that, but a living presence,
the living resurrected Christ who said, I am with you always by the Spirit, Matthew 28. And as you
attune to him who's already attuning to you in love, there is a deep healing. of what we could call
our attachment sensibilities or faculties, of that deep inner part of our soul that happens in
prayer. And really the only other place I know that happens is in deep relationships of attunement
with a therapist or a spouse or a best friend or many people can play that role.
You know that better than I do. Yeah. I love I love that emphasis.
Tell me now. So I feel like we've given the listener a little bit of scaffolding. I love that you
just made it simple. It can be a few moments in the morning, but it is a little different.
I know even myself, when I get out of the habit, you know, even just a few minutes, I get edgy.
I get like, yes, yes. You you so beautifully describe three different.
And we probably won't get to all of them. I wish we could because they're each so rich, but that's
what the book is for. There's three different things we encounter. We encounter ourselves, the
enemy, and God. And God. And I think it might be in that order to some degree or another,
but at least in my experience, anecdotally. And that first kind of encounter with the self to me is
a little bit of where... of the Venn diagram of spiritual formation and psychology, kind of there's
that overlap, right? It's that, for me, the distractedness,
which right now is just purely almost an addictive response because we're so used to our phones.
But then, and you go into it in the book, there can be these emotions we don't want to feel. There
can be anxiety. Talk to us a little bit about those first, when we start to practice this,
even... just for a few minutes, where we're trying to just be open to the living God.
Yes. Talk to us a little bit about these first kind of, I don't want to say, you know,
I don't want to pathologize because it's part of the process. But these first things we're going to
bump into and not to be surprised by that. Not at all. You know,
I tell the story in the book, but I... a number of years ago did this 21 day silent retreat and it
was extreme. So this is not what the book is about. It's not trying to get you to do this. Don't
worry. But, um, and it was run by this clinical psychologist and spiritual director. They basically
put you in this remote cabin on a coastline up in Puget Sound and Pacific Northwest. It was like
the worst time of year to do it. It was between Thanksgiving and Christmas, which if you know, the
Pacific Northwest sun goes down at like three o'clock. It rains every single day. Oh,
it's miserable. And so I'm up there and basically you turn in all your devices, no phone,
no laptop. You pack in all of your own food. You're not allowed to exercise, nothing to quote
discharge anxiety from your body. He just wants you to feel every angsty feeling you have.
He wants you to feel it. And no books are allowed. The Bible was,
quote, allowed. That's the word he used. But, quote, with a strong warning to, quote,
not use it as a distraction from God, which for my, you know, which I'm grateful for, deep biblical
background, that was like, you know, I was like emotionally allergic to that idea. What are you
saying? And. Honestly, I thought I would do great at it. I'm as introverted as I'm off the charts
introvert. I thought, man, this will be easy. This will be great. Just the break from my phone will
be good for my nervous system. I'll journal a lot. It was crushing.
I mean, I bear, I mean, like a couple of days in and I'm like every single day, I still have my car
keys and I'm just like, it takes every ounce of self-discipline to not bolt from my car and drive
home. And I asked the clinical psychologist a few days in, like, why no books?
I don't understand it. Books are a vital part of my spiritual life. They're like a pathway into
union with God for me, the right kind of books. Why no books? And he was quiet for a minute,
and he said, this program was designed to recreate Jesus' experience of 40 days in the wilderness,
Moses' experience, Elijah's experience, the desert. And he said, all the great ones went into the
desert. And then he was quiet for a minute. And he said, and the desert teaches by taking away.
And it hit me in that moment. That's all I said. That, oh, I am used to,
I've been socially conditioned in the West and by the Western church and no shade on it to learn by
addition, right? I'm going to read a book by Dr. I'm going to listen to this podcast.
I'm going to hear a sermon. I'm going to go do a Bible study. I'm going to study scripture. And
that's beautiful. That is a vital dimension of learning. But there's this whole other dimension of
learning by subtraction. The prime example of this would be suffering, right? People talk about how
much they learn, how much they grow through, say, bereavement or illness or cancer or loss.
It's not by reading books or hearing more sermons or getting new insights. They learn through
losing what they love. And when your health is stripped away, your loved one is stripped away,
your freedom is stripped away, your job is stripped away, your kid walking with Jesus is stripped
away. Man, you learn about God, about yourself, about what's in you,
about where you're still stuck. And so that solitude is another form, like suffering,
of learning by subtraction. And Thomas Keating used to say that the challenge with quiet forms of
prayer, contemplative prayer, solitude is the first thing that often happens. This is his language
and I love it. I quote him in the book is the unloading of the unconscious. I wrote that one down.
Dude, it's so good, huh? It's so good. And his work is just genius. But whatever is down in you,
it just comes up. And it might be great. It might be like just joy, gratitude. Oh my gosh,
I have so much to celebrate. That comes up. And you're just like full of wonder and awe and joy. Or
it's like that scene in The Empire Strikes Back where Luke is on Dagobah, and there's that crazy
cave where he has the vision of Darth Vader, and he asks Yoda, like,
what's in the cave? And Yoda says, only what you bring with you. You know, that's kind of like
solitude. That's too scary sounding, but it's kind of like going into the cave. It's like, what's
waiting for me there? Well, whatever you're bringing with you, good, bad, and ugly. And often...
first encounter we have, yes, I frame the book through three encounters, the encounter with
ourself, the encounter with our enemy, and the encounter with our God. But often the first and most
pressing encounter we feel is with ourselves and specifically with feelings of emotional pain that
have been latent but suppressed or numb through our cultural narcotic of choice.
And as it comes up, which is what none of us want to do, what we don't realize is that then almost
like dissipates into the air and we're set free slowly but surely from it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a powerful, the 21 day story is a great heightened example.
You talk about, I appreciate how well researched the book is. You cite, I think it's Ethan Cross's
work. Yeah, his work's great.
And I was curious, because one of the things, in addition to sort of this unconscious unloading,
and I would say to my listeners, and I'd be curious, before I go into Ethan Cross's work,
you have pastorally, like if some of what is there is trauma, deep trauma,
you've never... looked at maybe don't do it alone maybe make sure there's a spiritual director or a
pastor or go slowly or if you notice in those few moments in the morning there's scary stuff in
here i'm afraid to face maybe pay attention to that maybe that's your next step is to talk to
somebody about that so i i would put that out there because it you know sometimes looking inside
allowing the space for that to to surface stuff is there that we don't want to look at alone
initially. And so I think that's part of this,
right? That's part of practicing. I love that you say it's a practice. That's part of the practice.
And especially on the front end, that can be part of the practice. And I could not agree more. I
think solitude will always push you back to community and good community will always push you into
solitude. And in the same way that if i go out to start training for a half marathon with a group
and instantly start feeling a really sharp pain in my knee i should not just like keep going with
the plan i should stop go see a doctor figure out what's wrong and then restart my training And so
you may go into solitude and feel an undiagnosed pain. There may be a wound or,
you know, in modern language, trauma that begins to surface in your mind. And that might be your
invitation. Like, oh, okay, I can't go very far here. I need to go seek healing.
And that's going to happen likely in a relational context. Solitude in that case is not like you
tried and failed. It did its job. It got through to you and you were able to face what you've been
running away from. in a beautiful way.
So there's that category. The other category, I think, when it comes to the self is this thing of
chatter. And Ethan Cross's work on rumination, this idea of how do I know when I'm staying present
to something painful in a way that is forming me? in the gaze of love versus when I'm just kind of
ruminating, spinning around and around and around. Cause I think that's the initial experience for
a lot of people, including myself is just, I'm just spinning. Yep. Which I think again,
comes back to give your brain something healthy to do. And you know,
the easiest path in is the Psalms and the praying of scripture. And then it gets more black diamond
as you move into breath prayers and holding the loving gaze of God. And this is where I think the
Christian, tradition has a unique contribution to make that secular psychology doesn't have a
metaphysic for And so, you know, what I was trying to do in utilizing the work of Dr.
Cross and Phil Stutz makes an appearance in there is say that a lot of the experts from a secular
perspective, they can't talk about negative rumination without using the language of like psychic
beasts or inner demons or, you know, they have to resort to like Christian language essentially to
make sense. Totally. And it's a subtle but key difference. in those two chapters in the book,
where some feelings of pain come up and they need to be attended to and attuned to and set before
God. But then other thoughts come up that are most often emotionally charged and emotionally
loaded. And they're not your soul needing to process something before God. In the Christian
imagination, they're actually some form of evil assault upon your mind. And this is where even
modern Christians... would be baffled if they were to go read a lot of ancient Christians,
particularly the Desert Fathers and Mothers, who almost just label any intrusive thought as that's
a demon attacking me with the demon of lust or the demon of anxiety or whatever. And we can laugh
at them, but here's what I know, Allison. I know that some thoughts I have in solitude feel like
pain that the Spirit is gently inviting me to revisit before God. Other thoughts.
that are emotionally charged. feel intrusive. They feel like they're almost from outside of myself.
I don't want them. They feel malevolent. They feel almost like they have a will to them and they
want to make me angry or they want to make me hateful or spiteful toward my wife or they want to
make me bitter about something that a co-worker said to me or they want to make me scared about
the future or anxious about my kids. It's almost like they have this malicious will that is
pressing on my... and it's not bringing resolution and peace it's spiraling me into so you can you
can secularize that and say that's just the default mode network in your brain and negative
rumination and if your brain doesn't have something to focus on it goes into the negative to keep
your body alive and that's just all exacerbated by the internet and our phones that's one
explanation and certainly that's true the other explanation is that and There may be spiritual
energies of evil that want to manipulate our dopamine addled brains to move us away from love,
joy and peace and toward the antithesis. And either way, the solution,
whether you're a fourth century Christian monk or a modern neuroscientist is essentially thought
redirection. It's you don't play those thoughts out and over and over. You redirect your mind.
to what is good and holy and beautiful and true to Christ. Yeah, I love that.
And you're almost, it's interesting in this, and there's a lot of issues with this model. It's a
separate conversation, but this internal family systems model that helped me with this
contemplative practice for, this is a little bit of a side note, but my listeners will recognize
this because with such a busy mind, I have such a busy mind. That inner parts work helps create a
scaffolding for attunement, inviting God into that. I see it as a form of contemplation.
That being said, the founder of it, who's not a Christian, Richard Schwartz, there is a protocol in
it. They call them critters. They've changed. Now they call them unattached burdens. But
essentially, it's exactly what you're saying. This is a secular model. Tell me more. Yeah.
So part, if it's a part of me. Attuning to that, in my integration of it,
and tuning to that with the Holy Spirit, with Jesus, brings compassion and curiosity and creates
that inner attachment, that reconnection with parts of us that are usually young that have felt
alone. But if there's that malevolent feeling, if that compassion and curiosity can't be received,
if there's a sense in which this... What they say in the protocol is this is not a part of you.
This is unattached. This is coming from somewhere else. And you tell that to leave. You tell it to
leave. You don't befriend it. You don't graciously welcome it. You don't treat it like your eight
-year-old self. You tell it to go. It's interesting. Everybody has to come up with a paradigm for
this. Call it a demon. Call it intrusive thoughts. And I think to your listeners, I did not know
that. I have studied IFS. I've done a version of it with two different therapists, but I was not
familiar with that. aspect of it that is fascinating to me i wish i could go back and put that in
the book uh one of many reasons i should get you as a beta reader next time but get your eyes on it
but um you know allison one i think for listeners i just want to name we have to be honest this is
hard this is not easy the world you live in has made it it's hard you know in the fourth century it
was hard to do it's A thousand X harder now. You live in a world that is like a vast conspiracy
against the inner life. You know, Cheek sent me high. Your listeners will be familiar because of
the space that you live in, who obviously incredible psychologists who coined the idea of flow.
And that was his lifelong research at Chapman here in Southern California. He's passed away. But,
you know, he called it psychic entropy, which was like the default state of the brain without
something to do. But, you know, he said something really interesting. He said essentially that the
chief task in life is what he called the management of consciousness, meaning your ability to live
consciously and not let your mind just run wild and dictate your behavior, but kind of curate it
and lead it and guide it and shepherd it in the right direction. And I think the reality is in the
digital age, that's always been hard to do. But most of us have outsourced the management of our
consciousness to our phones. So I've written books on this.
I can't sit at a red light without checking my phone. So if you train your brain to not even be
able to sit out a red light without giving your brain something else to do. then what's going to
happen when you go into solitude for a day with no phone and you're just like, God, here I am for
you. Like your brain doesn't have the capacity. You have outsourced the management of your
consciousness to your phone, to Netflix, to the news, to constantly giving it something else to
think about. And so this can all be learned. The good news is all of this can be learned and you
don't have to start with overnight retreat or 21 day. You can start with two minutes in the
morning. And that's a beautiful place to start. That's a win. But it's hard to do and it takes
time. And you're trying to relearn the management of consciousness. What Christians would call that
Roman chapter 12 is the renewal of the mind. Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, it's hard. There's so many forces. I want to just touch on, so we've got,
and you mentioned this in the book, you know, there's the flesh. The flesh, the world and the devil
kind of there's there's we've talked touched on the inner. resistances, just even just going into,
just facing ourselves. I love how Kierkegaard talks about how, you know, your ability to be nailed
to yourself, right? It's going to be the degree to which you are,
what happens when you see Jesus, you know, have I been able to see myself, you know, in the
sickness unto death? The antidote to the sickness is, can I see myself? It's hard. It's a practice.
I love that you say that. I want to touch on this enemy. Because there was something in here that
just, I loved this, and it just hit me in a way. I really needed to hear it. And the quote that you
say is something to the effect of that we are not going into the wilderness to flee, but to fight.
And I just thought, because sometimes I can feel that sort of, oh, I'm supposed to be emptying my
mind. I'm supposed to kind of being kind of that almost nirvana, even though I know better. You
know, right. I'm supposed to be just having that Nirvana bliss feeling at the end of all this, you
know, bliss of love. But but you say we're actually not escaping reality. Number one, we're
engaged, but also we're fighting the enemy. What what do you mean by that? You know,
I was really impacted by a number of years ago. I was in Ireland doing some speaking and I had my
son with me and we took a day off and we drove down to the southwestern coast.
to um saving this little you know just hole in the wall airbnb it took a boat out the next morning
to this famous place called skellig michael which is an island just off the coast of ireland you
would recognize it from uh the most recent star wars movies where it it it's the setting for luke
skywalker in exile and the lost jedi temple and if you've seen those movies they're pretty cheesy
but if you've seen them there's these like stone huts that they stay in that look kind of like
beehives. I'm sure they made fake ones for the movie to blow up and stuff. But those are real.
They're over a thousand years old. And in real life, that is not the Lost Jedi Temple. It is an
ancient Augustinian Christian monastery that was built into the side of this rock,
Skellig. And it's, you know, it's so remote. At the time, for an ancient Celt,
it was the westernmost... point of the known world to them and they went out there essentially to
do battle with satan so skellig is the gaelic word for rock and it's essentially a giant rock
sticking out of the water and michael it was named after michael the archangel in the book of
revelation because he's the one that does battle with satan so these monks went out to this
specific place they picked this place this like it's brutal out there you have 2500 miles of
atlantic wind that crosses from the eastern seaborne and then hits this rock hence it's shaped it
looks alien it's like all angular and crazy looking because of the wind they went out there planted
themselves there built a community literally stone huts into the side of this cliff in order to
fight off satan on behalf of the known world to stand in the gap the pope would write them letters
people would send food out to them they were like heroes all through the world because they saw
their journey into the quiet, certainly not as like wellness spirituality to go out and escape from
the stress of life in Dublin. They saw it as we are going out to fight.
And this is just an aspect. It's not the predominant aspect, but it is.
an aspect of what we would call the spiritual discipline of silence, solitude, and stillness that
is often totally alien to a modern Christian who maybe gets like, oh yeah,
I need to feel my feels before God. And certainly I need to encounter God and listen for his voice
and read scripture. But the idea of like, oh no, I'm going out to almost force a confrontation with
whatever the besetting evils. and demonic oppression is in my life.
I'm almost going out intentionally to pick a fight in order to get free and to win,
which is what Jesus did in the 40 days. But that dimension is almost,
it's totally normal in the Desert Fathers and Mothers and Celtic spirituality, and it's almost gone
from the modern imagination. Yeah, it's not some sort of just self-soothing exercise.
That really hit me. That's powerful. I want to just, before we lose you,
maybe I'll ask it this way, because this third encounter is God. Yes.
Yes. Ultimately, and that's the most important one, because I would imagine this is like, I
would... I would go broke and bankrupt in sales to stop my gifting in life is persuasion.
But ultimately, the reason we go into the quiet is not to encounter ourself and our feelings and
let whatever is in us come up, though that's healthy and only natural. And it's certainly not like
to encounter evil. That's like the definition of a necessary evil. Ultimately,
we go there to encounter God, just to love him and be loved by him.
to be with him because just like there are some aspects of god that we can only experience in deep
intimate relationships of vulnerability and sharing and honesty and longevity there are other
aspects of god's love that we can only experience in the quiet and there is an enfolding into the
inner life of the trinity you know jesus said in john 17 The father and I will make our home in
them. He said that we are in him and he is in the father. And,
you know, all of us as Christians, if you are a basic Orthodox Christian, you believe that
doctrinally, like in your head, that's part of our belief architecture. Absolutely. We go into the
quiet to experience that spiritually, to actually experience the father and the son making their
home in us in prayer and by the spirit. And that is an experience.
All the other stuff is almost like the price of admission, you know, and there's great stuff that
comes from encountering ourselves and encountering our demons. Lots of good stuff comes out of
that, even if it's hard work. But again, it's still it's like it's like the coverage fee,
like you got it. You pay the price to get in. But ultimately, those are almost it's not linear,
but those are like gates you pass through. And this is why I'm so sad when people avoid it or they
try it for a bit and then they go back right out of it. If you stay with it long enough,
what you experience is a dimension of joy and union with God that I simply don't think is possible
anywhere else. And I think most Christians do not realize is possible. Yeah.
And I don't mean some big emotional high or some like, you know, rah, rah. It's often incredibly
gentle. It's soft. You're not in control of it. It's not a technique. You can't force it. But there
is a gentleness.
I can say this is about you gazing at God, gazing at you in love. And that sounds nice.
And it may sound weird to you. I don't know. But once you experience that with the eyes of your
heart, you see the eyes of Christ looking at you in love, that... That is an experience that few
people realize is even possible. And I'm telling you, once you experience it, you begin to realize
why people left everything behind to go out into the desert. And we look at them like they're just
wild. What were you thinking? Maybe they knew something that we don't know.
Do you find that the more you practice,
That feeling isn't always there, that sense of that sweet presence. But do you find that it comes
more quickly? How does that work for you? Yeah.
Sometimes. Most of the time I would just say I'm more peaceful if it doesn't come.
This morning I had a kind of stressful week. I got up. I went to bed last night,
really looking forward to getting up early. Woke up before my alarm. Again, not sleeping great.
Stressful week. I thought, okay, great. At least I'll get long, leisurely time of prayer. I could
barely pay attention this morning. There was no moment where I felt enfolded in Trinitarian light
and love. It was fine. I read a psalm. I read a gospel passage. I read 1 John 3.
I said my prayers. I tried to focus. My brain was all over the place. It wasn't bad, but it was
fine. And one of the most freeing things about life and about the practice of quiet and about
prayer is that, you know what? All we're really responsible to do is to show up.
I can barely even show up. I can't even get my mind, get my body there, but I can only get my mind
there like 10% of the time. And you know what? As a mentor says to me all the time,
the human soul was not designed to carry the burden of outcomes.
That can be applied to work. It can be applied to ministry. It can be applied to parenting.
And it can be applied to quietness and to prayer. We're not responsible for the outcomes of what
even comes out of our time. We just go there and we offer it in love to God. And anything that
comes is grace. It's all gift. And you might have this incredible,
soft, gentle experience of love. And you might just... Realize how addled your brain is and have to
just share in God's gracious patience with yourself. And that's not our responsibility.
And once you can accept that, it's so freeing because then even the tiniest little graces that come
are all grace.
That's beautiful. It reminded me of that. You just gave me that image of C.S. Lewis talking about
feeling that tug. on his shoulder we don't always get that tug on his shoulder and then and then
he's kind of avoiding it all day he's kind of i think it was in a grief observed he's kind of
avoiding it and then only to kind of turn and realize oh god just wanted to show me he loved me and
it's not always like that you know sometimes we just avoid it or sometimes we but i i love the
peace in what you're you're saying it's there it's sometimes filtered through our our crazy brains
and our crazy weeks and um I just appreciate the way you're using your gifts and the talents God
has given you. Is there anything you just want to close with about the book, what your hope is for
the reader, where they can find any resources as we close today? Maybe my mind's just here because
of thinking about Skellig Michael in Ireland, but John O'Donohue has a line that I'm sure would be
at home in a therapist's heart like your own. Be exceedingly gracious with yourself.
And I think 10 years ago, I would have mocked that line as, you know,
I don't know, for spiritual sissies or something, forgive my crass language. But I think now I
realize, oh, what a Christ-like pace. You know, I read this morning the story of Mary and Martha,
and I just noticed how Jesus said Martha's name twice. Martha. Martha,
you are worried and upset about so many things. And I just thought,
oh man, I hear the tenderness in his voice. Not Martha! Martha,
Martha. And I just hear your name. Allison, Allison, John Mark,
John Mark. He has to say four names for me, but just the exceedingly graciousness of Christ.
As you go on this journey, heroism will do nothing. Just start with two or three minutes,
not two or three days or two or three weeks. Just start with the psalm, not with...
know, centering prayer, whatever. I'm for all that stuff, but just start small, start where you
are, be gracious with yourself. The point of none of this is to be good at it. The point is just to
offer ourselves more deeply to God who was already offered and is offering himself to us in Christ
and by the spirit to attempt to tune a tune to him. Who's already attuning to you.
And I'm telling you, There's lots of things in the world that we can just choose ignorance of.
The world is too big of a place to try everything, do everything, experience everything. And I'm
fine to go to my grave. I hope I get to see Boston. I've never been to Boston. But you know what?
If I don't see Boston before I die, that's fine. Don't put quiet prayer in that category.
I hope I see Italy someday. But you know what? If I go to my grave having never seen Italy, that's
just fine. Yeah. But don't go to your grave thinking, ah, this is for introverts.
Ah, I don't have time for this. Ah, it's not my stage of life. Ah, I'm too whatever. No, like this
is for you, whoever you are, whatever your personality type is, whatever stage of life you're in,
it's going to look totally different for you based on those answers to those questions. But this is
for all God's people and it's experience of love that I want for you. Beautiful.
Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us and be well. Go in peace. Be gentle with yourself.
Bless you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You.
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What happens when trying to be more secure (on the surface) backfires?
This week, Dr. Alison talks with Dr. Marisa Franco, about her new book, Worth. They explore a different way to think about anxious and avoidant attachment, the surprising science of how old memories continue to shape our present relationships, and why healing doesn’t require making someone else the villain.
They also talk about grief, empathy, and a powerful experience Marisa had in therapy that changed how she understood the parts of herself she had spent years trying to hide.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
*A different way to understand anxious and avoidant attachment
*Why seemingly small moments can trigger surprisingly big reactions
*The fascinating science of memory reconsolidation
*What grief has to do with genuine empathy and closeness
*The surprising overlap between attachment science, parts work, and spiritual healing
About Dr. Marisa G. Franco:
Dr. Marisa G. Franco is a psychologist, professor, and New York Times bestselling author of Platonic. Her new book is Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.
More Resources:
Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment—available wherever books are sold
Listeners get exclusive access to the first 3 chapters of Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul.
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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Transcript
Episode 228
Marisa Franco
The very thing I was trying to do to save the relationship arguably could have caused more harm to the relationship because again, we can't work on problems that I'm not fully acknowledging because I'm putting all this pressure on myself to be secure. The point isn't to be secure, it's to be emotionally honest, right? Because the more that we can express those parts of us, the more we can get our needs met, the more that we can heal. And that's what parts work really does for us. It allows us to be more emotionally honest. To authentically get to a resolution where I accept my parents as they are, I have to fully embrace the ways that I didn't accept them. When I'm in my own place of pain, that is urgent for me and that can take over the whole screen before my eyes. When I haven't processed my own pain, that eclipses the true empathy and compassion that I might have for you.
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You. Today's conversation was just such a special one. It was just such a delight. It kind of veered at times a little bit more into a conversation between two counseling psychologists kind of geeking out about attachment and parts work and inner healing. But it was just such a surprise as I dug into the book for today's interview to discover so many overlapping themes with my own work. This conversation is with Dr. Marissa G. Franco. She's a psychologist, a professor, and the New York Times bestselling
author of Platonic. She has a brand new book out. It's called Worth the New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment. And as I dug into the book, I began to notice some striking similarities between some of the conclusions Marissa landed at and some of the work that I did in The Secure Soul. So the conversation ended up being just such a fun conversation and back and forth. Between the two of us as we talked through some of these themes. Because what I discovered is that Marissa doesn't approach attachment as another goal we have to achieve or something we can find out there. And in fact, she shares a story today about her own journey of being in a dating relationship and realizing that she was working so hard to be the safe base, to do all the right things, to be safe and secure for this other person that she was abandoning herself. And it set her out on this journey that you'll hear. Hear us. talk about today. She talks a lot about memory reconsolidation, which is the power of the science and the power of why revisiting some of these painful memories actually changes things inside of us. I loved that part of the conversation. And toward the end of the episode, Marissa shares an encounter she had in therapy, a spiritual encounter she had that I thought dovetailed so well with what we think of in the Christian faith as this idea that we are fear. fearfully and wonderfully made. Every single part of us is fearfully and wonderfully made. And we can experience that belovedness, how beloved we are of God in the deepest places of our souls. And I loved hearing that Marissa had a glimpse of that in her own work in therapy and just how powerful this work can be, both spiritually and psychologically. This is such a powerful conversation. I learned a lot from Marissa. She's got a teacher's heart. She's a really good teacher. And so she broke down some of these concepts and the science behind them in such a beautiful way, but also a practical way, a way I could really understand it. I think you're going to love this conversation. You can pick up Marissa's new book, Worth, Anywhere Books Are Sold, and you can connect with Marissa at drmarissagfranco.com. We'll link to that in the show notes.
Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Marissa G. Franco.
I'm so thrilled, Marissa, to have you. As I was sharing with you before we hopped on, there's just so much synergy between where your work and your own inner work, both your academic work and your inner work, has led you as me. And so I'm just so excited to have
this conversation with you and learn more about all that led to this beautiful book, Worth.
Oh, I am so excited for it to nerd out with you, too, in this conversation. I was like,
can we please just geek out a little bit here? I want to start, before we kind of get into the
nitty gritty of how you... kind of reframed attachment in your own life with this relationship that
you start out within the book, because I think it's so relatable. So just talk to us a little bit
about this relationship you found yourself in and what you found yourself doing under the guise of being a, you know, securely attached person and how that led to this journey.
Yeah, absolutely. So this is a relationship I was in during the COVID pandemic and things sort of
started to go awry where my ex-partner would sort of start withdrawing. If I told him ever
anything, he'd give me the silent treatment. Things were sort of falling apart. Like every morning
he wouldn't really greet me, it would just sort of be like a grunt. And how did I respond to this
breakdown? Well, I was, you know, studying research on relationships at the time and learning
things like co-regulation where you regulate yourself and you... to regulate your partner soft
starts you're bringing up the conversation in a very soft way like i would love to see more of this
this and this you know um not using the four horsemen of the apocalypse as folks know like the
gottmans i'm just trying all the stuff that i learned is like parts yeah of like trying to secure
be an anchor for both of us And none of it is working. He continues to withdraw.
And I continue to try to figure out how can I engage better to sort of bring him back to this
relationship. And it gets to sort of this point where we're on this hike and it's supposed to be
like a nice date for us and missed all of this sort of breakdown that's happening between us.
And I noticed myself. trying to be so happy and chipper. But at some point I just break down and
I start crying and I tell him like, I can't be the shock absorber for your moods anymore.
And that's when that was the beginning of the end of that relationship. And that led me to this
reflection that I was sort of using this idea of secure, secure attachment to really abandon
myself. Right. Because instead of asking myself, how do I feel? What do I need? I thought of
What does it look like to be a secure partner for him? And I think a lot of the times when we talk
About attachment theory, we talk about it in relation to other people. Exactly. But the first step of
being secure is being authentic to who you are and where you're at. And so it's far more secure
to say, hey, I'm anxious and I need reassurance than it is to pretend to be able to regulate
yourself and the other person. So I say in the book, the most secure thing that I said in that
relationship was that I finally wanted to end it. Wow. because you finally reconnected to your
own inner world. So I would love, just for my listeners, many of whom have read the first couple
of chapters of The Secure Soul and kind of where similarly, it's a little different where in my own
Experience, I see in myself and other people looking, kind of either trying to be the secure base.
or looking for someone else to be that secure base in a way that isn't humanly possible and kind
of finding the limits of this whole attachment theory. Not that it's not incredibly powerful,
but also like there is no perfect parent. There is no perfect partner. There is no perfect friend.
And so you, I'm just so want the listener. This was just such a fun discovery.
You went on a journey in your own life. You dedicate the book to a therapist.
Yes, I do. I do. And you go on a journey into your inner world.
Can you share with us a little bit about what that was like for you and how that changed how you
began to think about worth and security and self-esteem and all these things?
Yeah. So I think before I wrote this book on self-worth. I was sort of like, I feel good about
myself. You know, I have high self-esteem. You know, this isn't a problem for me. It's the
problem for the people out there. And then I'm going to this therapy and it finally becomes more
about me admitting the truth of how I feel than presenting as if I have it all together and I have it
all OK. And so in the book, I say, like, when I no longer see my personality through a strainer of
acceptability, what is left? And I realize that. There are parts of myself that feel ashamed,
parts of myself that feel needy, parts of myself that feel insecure. And I have just been pushing
those parts away and trying to ignore them and lean on the parts that don't feel that way.
thinking that that's the way to be secure is almost too... pretend, to act it out,
to keep the parts of your flaws in the shadows, right? And only the sparkly parts that you're
spending time with around yourself and others. And then I realized that you can only heal the
parts of yourselves you're willing to acknowledge. And that if I'm trying to suppress or shame
parts of myself that are more needy, are more dependent. then I'm reenacting on those parts of
me the same thing that makes those parts insecure in the first place. And so in the book, I argue
against feeling perfectly secure, but secure-ish. So there's always room for us to admit to the
parts of ourselves that are insecure so we can provide those parts of us with the utmost care
and compassion. So I love that argument that the goal isn't to feel secure 100% of the time,
because that would actually be disingenuous. Exactly. Yeah. Because that would mean
eradicating parts of me that at times don't feel 100 percent sick. It's such a great freeing
reframe. As I was reading your book and, you know, sort of all that I had no idea where you
were going with it. And I the IFS therapist to me was like, oh, my goodness, she's doing some
parts work here. What's happening? You know, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I've wondered is.
instead of putting ourselves into these buckets of anxiously attached or avoidantly attached or
disorganized, right? I find it much more helpful to think about parts of myself at times, anxiously
reach parts of myself at times do not want to deal. I I'm just curious in your own experience and
in your own framework, how you think about that. I find that a little bit more helpful, but I'm curious how you think
about that. love that because you know you can be a different attachment style in different
relationships and ultimately I think that's about this different relationship is bringing out a
different part of myself and it also allows us I think for what I'm saying in the book which is
like the point isn't to be secure it's to be emotionally honest right because the more that we can
express those parts of us the more we can get our needs met the more that we can heal and that's
what parts work really does for us it allows us to be more emotionally honest because instead of me
saying like Oh, I'm not anxious. I'm not anxious because a lot of me isn't anxious. I'm able to say
a part of myself is. And that emotional granularity allows us to tell the truth of our inner
experience more deeply. That's so good. Even applying that to that relationship,
which needed to end. But if you'd had this framework, you might have been able to say a part of me
wants to be safe for you. And a part of me is frustrated. Yes,
exactly. Which would have been more honest. It would have been more honest and even more caring for
him because maybe if he knew that I wasn't just secure, secure, secure, he would have changed his
behavior, right? And it's interesting that the very thing I was trying to do to save the
relationship ultimately, arguably, could have caused more harm to the relationship because, again,
we can't work on problems that I'm not fully acknowledging because I'm putting all this pressure on
myself to be secure. I love how you're saying that it's a way to be more emotionally honest.
Exactly.
So where, when you use this term, which I love secure ish, what does that look like?
Yes. On a day to day basis, you know, in, in a moment where you're on a date or in a moment where
you're with a friend or, you know, what does that look like for you?
How do you, how do you practice that? Yeah. So. I was interviewing people that were sort of secure
-ish. And one interview that really stands out to me was with Dr. Skylar Jackson, because he said
he would wave his hand over his day to see where his emotional energy lied, which small things were
actually big to him. And that was really revelatory for me because I was like, I'm used to
acknowledging my feelings when they're hitting me in the face. But if it's a small thing, I'm kind
of used to just pushing it away or trying to ignore it. But it was almost like for these secure
people, why would I ignore a feeling? That's a precious part of myself that I don't want to let
diffuse into. That's a part of myself I want to be curious about and get to know. And so day to
day, that looks like, you know, when I speak on security, it's really about.
this framework I have called feel, heal, do, which is that when you feel something, something,
some little hurt, some little pain, instead of trying to push it away, let it come to the surface,
like embrace it, right? That label that feeling, acknowledge how it feels in part of you.
And then heal is give yourself care. Maybe put your hand on your chest and remind yourself I'm
safe. I'm okay. I'm okay. And then do is. After you've had that feeling complete,
is there still a change that you need in your environment? And I'll say practically how this
manifested for me is, you know, I talk about an example of the book where I'm supposed to hang out
with a friend and we talk about hanging out as a group. And she's like. I say, oh, yeah, maybe we
can we can start hanging out as a group this time. And she says, no, I prefer to hang out one on
one. And I want to text her back right away and say, oh, yeah, yeah, totally fine. But I'm
internalizing all this stuff. And I'm noticing that when I'm texting someone urgently, it's often a
desire to escape a feeling in myself. And now I'm trying to be more open even to those small
passing feelings in me. And so I turn towards what's there and I notice. oh, I feel like my my
offering was sort of a little bit rejected. I'm feeling a little bit rejected and I don't feel like
I should feel rejected. So then I'm trying to text her and say it's all OK. But slowing down.
noticing that rejection, feeling that rejection, caring for myself. You know, I'm OK.
You know, my reality is valid. It's OK to feel this way. I'm here for you. Right.
Letting that sort of feeling move through me. And then actually, after the feeling moves through
me, I felt like I no longer cared. But if I did care, maybe I could have, you know, checked in
again about I thought we were going to hang out as a group. Do you want to plan for that in the
future?
That is, it's such a great example because there's so many components to that. The pause before the
part of you that just immediately wants to reassure her was a cue. Why am I so urgently needing to
reassure her? Maybe there's a part of me. And then again, I think that. That's so profound that in that case,
you didn't actually need to speak to it with her. You needed to be that safe place for you.
Yeah. And that's why I think. because I just did a lesson on this with my students.
They're afraid to acknowledge those small feelings. They're afraid to acknowledge that I was kind
of hurt in that situation because they think it'll destroy the relationship. I don't want to hold
it against this person. You know, they don't have capacity to actually hear me. But I'm telling
you, this internal process, you don't need to tell anybody about it if you don't want to.
Like this process is for you. It's for you, for you, for you, first of all. And second of all,
What we really find in the research, what I found through writing this book, is that when we
acknowledge our feelings and care for ourselves in this way, we are less likely to take our
emotions out on other people. And in fact, it's the very people who don't have a practice of
finding security in themselves who are the ones that are acting aggressive towards others,
passive aggressive, withdrawing from the relationship. So it sounds counterintuitive, but the more
that you can acknowledge your anger, your hurt, your frustration in a relationship and care for
yourself through that emotion, the less you feel the need to take it out or distance yourself from
the people around you. It's so good. And, and I love, you know, it's funny,
Marissa, I mentioned, you know, for the listener, I mentioned to Marissa before the call that this,
I couldn't, I wouldn't be able to stop myself from just having coffee with you, as opposed to like
staying in the interviewer role. Because it's so interesting to hear you say that when I was
writing some of the stories for the Secure Soul, it's mostly just my inner dialogue. It's sort of
with these younger selves. And I want to get into that because I love how you talk about it
primarily in terms of memory. But I almost kind of created these different versions of myself that
I'm having these conversations with. I tell almost very little detail about what the event was
outside. I'll give some of that. But it's almost exclusively focused.
For one thing, a lot of the people in my outside world I love, I don't wish to tell their story.
I don't wish to tell what was going on with them. Or because I'm high in empathy, I'm aware that
some of these moments that were so hurtful for me were not, that other person was not intending for
that to be heard. And there is a place to... uh, hold people accountable. So that,
that, that is, it just wasn't what I was trying to do with this. I was trying to show exactly what
you're saying. Like so much of that inner witnessing and being with and feeling seen and known,
um, can happen internally. I, I, I love the, uh,
Yalom's, uh, thing about how that, that, uh, The idea that isolation is kind of ultimately this
reality that no one can fully know our inner lives, but we can.
And so I just, I love how you're saying that, that so much of this, it doesn't mean we don't
sometimes need to have the hard conversations outside of us. Of course we do. But to your point and
what you're saying about your students, that there's that fear of just honoring inwardly when maybe
that's the thing that's most needed.
Absolutely. I mean, it's just the longest relationship we'll have is the one we have with
ourselves. And we really need to work on it and we need to spend time on it. And we need to treat
our internal world as if it matters. That's really how I define worth in the book, to treat your
every feeling, your every emotion as if they matter to you and they're deserving of your attention
and compassion. That's so good. I want to talk a little bit about...
how you move from attachment into memory. Yeah. What is going on? What is that relationship and how
are you seeing memory as such a crucial component to worth and safety and inner secure-ish-ness?
Yeah. Yeah.
So you can think about insecurity, including insecure attachment styles. They're a theory of self
and the world. And the theory, you know, if you're anxious, people are going to reject you. If
you're avoidant, you can't trust people. If you're disorganized, it's sort of a mishmash of the
two. And the thing is that when things happen that counter that theory. And sometimes what happens
is we can't necessarily internalize that information. And so, you know,
when you're sort of anxious and you think people are going to abandon you and maybe someone
continues to show up, but today they took a little longer to answer that text, right? That theory
comes up again. Oh my gosh, look at it. It's all along. This is, I was waiting for this to happen.
Look, they're finally abandoning me despite all the information as to how they've shown up, right?
And so when I began to think of self-worth attachment as like a theory of self.
I had to understand where does that theory come from? And I'm sort of jumping around between
different concepts, worthiness, self-esteem, attachment, because I think they all are under, you
know, undergirded by the same sort of thing. And that is that that theory comes from. Your
memories. Researchers say memories are the database of self-esteem. That the reason that you think
that if you get close to me, you're going to harm me is because if you're avoidant, that has
happened before. It's real for you. Yes. And so what researchers also say is that memories don't
just record the past. Memories are the database of self-esteem. And the thing about memories is
they're not just there to record the past, but predict the future. So a part of you thinks that
whatever happened in your past is going to happen again. And that's why our attachment styles are
adaptations, right? If someone is going to be really inconsistent about their love, like maybe my
caregivers were, I might have to fight for it. I might have to always, you know, try to stay close
to them to remind them of me. But the problem is that you might be in situations where the past
isn't replaying and something different is happening and it's very hard for you to tell. And so
because memories are not just made to record the past, but predict the future, there's this feature
of our memories wherein we can actually update our memories. And what that means is that we can go
back. to the memories where we were abandoned or we were emotionally neglected. And we can picture
ourselves intervening as our current self and say, you always deserve love and care.
This person's ability to not show up for you doesn't mean anything about who you are as a person. I
want you to know that I'm going to be here for you as long as you need. You're safe. I'm here. I'm
here. I'm here. We can go back to our memories and visualize ourselves intervening in that way.
Research finds that it not only predicts less. trauma symptoms, greater self-esteem, but you also
see changes in the hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that records the memory. It's so
powerful. You use this term. The only other time I've ever...
really learned about this term was a presentation, actually Dick Schwartz was there at the
Danielson Institute in Boston, memory reconsolidation. So that's kind of what you're speaking to,
but tell us, I love, I think it's such an interesting, even just the phrase memory reconsolidation
is something powerful and scientific for anybody who thinks there's sort of a woo-woo component to
this. And certainly for many of my listeners, there's also this component of inviting um you're
inviting god into to be with you in that space where there can be that why why did god abandon me
there right so there's there's a lot to this but i love how you break down this science can you can
you walk us through what that term means and and that there's something actually happening here
yeah so let's let's nerd out a little bit yeah yeah sort of the original study that introduced us
to this term was done by this guy named kareem nadair and he Before him,
it was thought that memories are sort of this fossilized record of events. We can't really change
them. You know, once they're written, they're etched in stone. And so his mentor, Joseph Ledoux,
told him, like, memories can't be changed. Like, that's preposterous. So he's conducting this study
with these rats where he's exposing them to shocks and a noise and shocks and a noise and shocks
and a noise. And eventually they start freezing at the noise because it's associated with the
shock. And so the sort of beep. And so what happens is then he gives these rats a drug so they
can't freeze in response to the beep, the noise anymore. And so then when he takes them off the
drug, he's looking at, if I play the beep. Will they continue to freeze because that's their
original memory? Or will they stop freezing because this new experience of them being calm when
they were on the drug disrupted that original memory of them having to freak out whenever that beep
played? And so when he does play the beep after these rats now, after they are no longer on this
drug, he finds that they don't freeze anymore. And so what he argues is that this new memory
related to this beep, to this noise, actually updated the past one of this beeper, this noise being
something scary or being something threatening. And so that was the beginning of memory
reconsolidation, which has since been studied in human beings that, hey, if we go back to a
negative experience. We can add positive information where we're much calmer now, right?
And we fundamentally update the way that that memory sits in our brains. But I want to really
emphasize updating the memory for healing. is really about updating the emotions in the memory,
right? Because these are memories that carry emotions we haven't processed yet. They're what's
called open memories. They trigger us. We don't like to look at them. They make us anxious. They
make us angry. We don't feel like we have closure. We're confused as to why it happens. If we talk
about it, we might break down or get upset a little bit. And it's these kinds of memories that...
not closed. So they continue to imprint themselves as to on how we experience the world right now
until we can go back and offer ourselves that closure. You are such a good teacher.
Your students are so lucky to have you. The way you break this down, I'm just sitting here thinking
I'm so grateful that we're getting the benefit of listening to you break this down and make it so
concrete, right? And so real. So tell, can you give us an example of what this might have,
you share a lot of vulnerable stories in the book of what this might have looked like for you.
Yes. Yeah. So the interesting thing about this theory is that sometimes the memory doesn't seem
like that big of a deal from our adult self now. When we are children, things imprint on us a lot
more intensely. We don't have resources in the same way. We're completely dependent on other people
for our survival. Everything is a lot more threatening. So one memory that I've often gone back to
is as a kid, my mom was a teacher. Then she tutored kids after school. I would go to soccer
practice. She would often arrive late. And I was the only kid, the only kid of color too.
And I'm always having my parent arrive late. And the coach is waiting. with his daughter and his
daughter and her friends that are going home. And I'm just sort of off to the side alone, feeling
ashamed, embarrassed, feeling like something's wrong with me. But I try to address it with my mom
and she's telling me all these reasonable reasons why she's going out of her way to help me.
And so thus there's, I also feel powerless and that there's nothing that I can do here. And so for
me, it's not, not heard, not heard in that moment, even though that was probably true on some
level. Exactly. Adult me is like, I am also an adult, sometimes late, sometimes you have a lot
going on and it's hard. But as a kid, exactly. It's painful.
It was, it was very painful. And so. It involves, so it's me really going back to the memory and
make it as vividly as possible, saying it in the present tense. I'm on that soccer field. I see,
you know, Janine and her friends laughing and me on the side. I feel embarrassed.
I see the coach asking me if I know when my mom's going to come. I have nothing to say to him.
I feel alone. I feel sad. I feel upset. I also feel like I don't want to show anyone that I feel
this way.
Then picturing my adult self going in there and saying, I am here to pick you up. I will always be
here when you need me. You will never be alone. Nothing is wrong with you. The fact that your mom
didn't show up, it doesn't mean anything about you, your sense of worth, your sense of validity.
And I want you to know you can tell me how upset you were at having to wait. I'm going to hear you
and see your anger and your hurt as valid. And I want to know anytime you're upset because that
really matters to me. It really matters to me. I want to be able to offer you care in those
moments. And then my younger self continue to ask for what she needs. of, okay, like,
can I like jump into your arms and then let's go into the car and I can cry in there. And then my
adult self, absolutely, I will take you there. And then picturing that and then subsequently asking
myself, how does this change my view of myself and the world around me after this memory has been
reconsolidated? Which, and how do you notice those shifts?
How does it change? Because it is, yeah. Every time I go back to the memory, I'm like, wait,
there's more. Keep going. I even feel I feel in my body right now that I'm like,
oh, I can still feel that like hurt or that pain or like it feels like a tightness in my chest
because it's like the pain around it. But then I can't express that pain. And I think receiving
that someone actually wants to listen to me and hear me,
it almost makes me want to cry because it's like, oh, I'm finally safe to cry. I don't have to hold
those emotions in anymore.
It makes me feel free. Like it makes me feel like something that has been burdening me is like kind
of falling off of me finally. It makes me feel safe and it makes me feel alive.
Like it feels like in not having to like hide parts of myself, there's a new like almost like
vivaciousness for living and excitement about it and trust in other people.
And it almost reminds me of this quote. Khalil Gibran says like, to be free is to cease to think of
freedom. And I think to be loved is to cease to think about being loved because you are loved so
well. And that's almost how I feel in that moment. Like this freedom and this like,
I'm not even thinking about it anymore. I just want to like be myself and express myself in the
world.
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and free that just whatever was kind of stuck or trapped in there is no longer yeah it's subtle
shifts but they really matter to then how we show up with other people,
with ourselves. Yes. We're not dismissing ourselves. Yes.
We're taking more of our full self in. Right. And feeling like more free to bring up needs or
problems or concerns. And, you know, I don't know, all these ways you see the past shaping the
present. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that is such a real moment,
what you described, where our adult self can dismiss it,
analyze it away, look, you know, and, but it mattered. And that's who that's, that is a precious
part of you that took that in. Exactly. And it's like,
it's so freeing to get beyond evaluating. whether it should matter and just admitting that it does,
right? Just admitting what is my actual emotional truth, not having to question it or pull it or
reframe it or manipulate it, right? That if it hurts you, it hurts you,
period. And I wonder, I'm going to go off script here again for a second, but also what it means
about the other person. Because I think even in that story,
that was your experience. And I think as parents, you know, for my listeners who are parents, you
know, I know for me, it was always I didn't kind of what you were saying about your students. I
didn't want my parents tried so hard. So I felt like if I honored some of my own experiences,
I was saying they were bad and I didn't it doesn't have to be that much of a binary. No,
it's almost a sort of just this was real. And and it almost is freeing.
And I kind of like you with the text. I don't this isn't even something I. And I can maybe laugh
about it with them or, you know, maybe there, and there might be instances where we do need to go
and have those repairing moments where there really was. And I know I've had many clients where
there was a real abandonment there that needs to be addressed. And so that there's that piece of
it, but it's kind of like that do step in your, you know, maybe this is a conversation I need to go
have with the person who wasn't there for me, or maybe this is something I need to figure out how
to set boundaries with because it's still going on today. But in my own journey, it was similar to
yours where it was like, I could be so empathetic to the other person. I almost didn't. It meant I
shouldn't validate what my experience was. Exactly. Do you know what? I think as an adult,
like I'm close to my mom, I realize she's an imperfect person and I love her. But I think how I
truly, truly get there to feeling like with integrity, I believe that.
And it's not coming from a place of, you know, having the people please her because she's my mom
and I don't want to, you know, dishonor her. I truly get there through grieving the way she was
imperfect for me and acknowledging the way she was imperfect for me and feeling that,
right? And you don't skip the stages of grief, right? And to authentically get to a resolution
where I accept my parents as they are, I have to fully embrace the ways that I didn't accept them.
And I have to fully sit with those ways. Marissa. That is such...
I want, I'm just sitting here going, you are like literally speaking into these conversations I'm
having with myself and so many friends where I want to break down what you just said.
There's a lot of wisdom in this. You said to get to that place of close, of true closeness,
of acceptance, of honoring what we do have. I actually have to go through the grief.
Yes. Oh, that's so counterintuitive. I know. People don't know this.
So this is like, say more. Can you say, say more? Because it feels,
it can feel disloyal. It can feel like it's going to break the relationship. Yep.
And it is so true that it actually, and it has something to do with the emotional honesty piece.
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Say, so say more about how it actually. And again,
this is within a certain, I want to always give the caveat, in some relationships where there's so
much toxicity or so much brokenness, but in many of these sort of ordinary wounds of just being
imperfect humans. So say more about. Yeah. Well, empathy is fundamentally a quality that we can
embrace when we're more well-resourced, right? That I can think about when I'm in my own place of
pain. That is urgent for me. And that can take over the whole screen before my eyes.
And so when I haven't processed my own pain, that eclipses the true empathy and compassion that I
might have for you, right? Because I'm still upset. I'm still angry. I'm still sad. And I haven't
moved through any of those feelings. And it's simpler to, if I broke my leg and you're in pain,
I'm probably going to focus on my broken leg, right? And maybe I will try to acknowledge your own
pain, but it won't be as deep of an acknowledgement. You know, it just won't be as thorough. It
won't be have as much integrity as when I heal from some of my own stuff. And that pain gives me
room, gives me resources, gives me spaciousness to now see you in your full humanity.
And that is really the quality that we see of these secure-ish people. They don't only treat
themselves like they matter. They care more deeply to everyone around them. I would say that is
really one of the most defining qualities of truly secure people are truly so caring and better
able to meet the needs of other people because there's this flexibility that comes out of not
feeling threatened by your own pain and having more capacity to attune to other people. That is
such... a word that it actually paradoxically allows us to have more spaciousness for other people
and not the kind to bring this full circle that is
abandoning yourself. Exactly. Exactly. Not the urgent kind of empathy.
Oh my God, I need to care about them. I need to, I'm bad. I'm so guilty. Yes. I have to make them
feel okay. I have to be this safe place for them. The kind that is, I have been a safe place for
myself.
And so I, I, from the fullness of that, even just recently,
I've noticed with, with some folks where I've had to work through some stuff, I can be
simultaneously.
present and grateful for what's in front of me and aware of what's not there. Because I know,
you know, it's such a, and it allows me to go, but I can be grateful for what is present between
the two of us. Yeah. We shouldn't have to sort of coerce ourselves into gratitude. And I think
gratitude naturally comes when we sit with our, and move through some of our own pain.
As you were writing the book, it's such a. an incredible book, just the benefit of so much research
and your own life wisdom, your own experience. What did you find most surprising?
I think just this idea that
we're not truly living in the present. There's this psychoanalyst, Philip Bromberg,
and he says that we don't go to therapy to deal with what's happened then, but what's still
happening now and we're convinced will continue to happen, right? And that there's literally a part
of our brain when we go through a new experience, right? Let's say I grew up with a child and
parents were very critical, very critical, even humiliating. My boss gives me constructive
feedback. There's literally a part of my brain that re-triggers the previous emotional state that
I had in this moment right now. with my boss because it's drawing parallels between that memory and
this one. So it's not only that we are still living in the past. It's like we're still re
-experiencing the past. Literally like a moment of harm becomes every moment after that.
And to think of security as finally the ability to truly live in the present because you have been
able to confront some of those old harms that are stamping themselves onto now. And so for me,
often I'll ask myself, okay, what's actually happening in this situation versus what are the
assumptions that I might have based on my past experiences, I find it extremely hard to not do that
and to try to grapple with the truth of a given situation beyond what it's like triggering in me.
And so I think that's both a fascinating and a tragic idea for us as human beings that,
you know, and why I'm really motivated to write this book because it can feel so hard to feel.
worthy and to get out of the trap of the past and actually live in and take in the beauty of the
present. Yeah, that's powerful. That's really powerful. That just keeps us in the fullness of the
present moment, which is I wanted to say the beauty. And I was like, and maybe that's what we fear
a little bit. It's also what's hard in the present moment. It's also not. having our defenses in
the present letting letting us experiencing it as it is and trusting ourselves rather than bracing
yeah and yet it's such a better a better way to show up dr marissa g franco the book is called
worth the new science of self-esteem and secure attachment and listener uh If you've followed me
for even a minute, you will find so much in this book that resonates because just this journey that
you've taken us on is just such a... I just I love where you took this.
I just I think it's so important. There's so much more depth to, you know,
we we didn't get a chance to geek out. I'm older than you. And I did the first two years of my Ph
.D. in a counseling psychology program, which is similar years before I switched to the degree in
psychology of religion. But I partly switched. And this was years ago.
This is it may have changed. And that's another conversation I'd love to have with you. But it felt
like everything that I was learning in the counseling psychology program, same with clinical
psychology, was so behavioral. So it didn't allow me to get into the deeper inner world.
And that's what I was hungry for. I stumbled upon IFS well after I was finished with my doctoral
work. And it was kind of like, oh, this is what I was, you know, was still really at the height of
everything was cognitive behavioral therapy. Not that, and again, very helpful tools in, in, in
thought restructuring and all of that. So I, I just love that, you know, you're bringing this
fullness.
into the conversation. Honestly, it really feels like a spiritual book. And I, you know,
as we end, I just want to share one story from the book. And that's, you know, with my own therapy,
I talked about trying to acknowledge these parts of myself as I push away. And there's this part of
me that felt. ashamed, dependent, needy, does not match my larger sense of self.
So I just try to push it away. And in my own therapy, my therapist was like, we work with the
divine and giving things up to the divine. And so my therapist said, you know, give that part of
you up to the divine. And so I did, I tried to picture this needy part of me that I felt ashamed of
being offered to the divine. And the message that I got back was that part of you is perfect too.
That part of you is perfect too. And that was so mind-blowing for me.
I was so used to trying to push these parts away, but I realized the problem that was never that I
felt insecure. It was that I felt ashamed of my insecurities. And the second that I treat those
parts of me as beloved is the second they become integrated into me and no longer feeling like they
need to hijack my emotional experience of self and other and able to finally, so they could finally
get my attention and my love. That's beautiful. fearfully and wonderfully made every single part of
you it's beautiful i love that i love that it's a beautiful book i've loved talking to you i'm so
grateful that that our paths crossed and i hope we can have more conversations to come the book is
everywhere tell us where to find you and other things you're doing um the books available
everywhere books are sold yes so it's called worth the new science of self-esteem and secure
attachment um i share tips on the science of connection with self and other at dr marissa g franco
that's dr M-A-R-I-S-A-G-F-R-A-N-C-O. And you can reach out at my website,
drmarissagfranco.com for speaking events on self-worth at work or to get a free list of practices
to improve your self-worth. Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, my pleasure. This was
such a great conversation.
Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you
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Join us each weekday for the best of you every day, a brief daily reflection to help you start your
mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor
God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.
What happens to your capacity to trust God when life has taught you to brace for disappointment?
You may still believe God is good. You may know the Scriptures and have walked with Him for years. And yet there can be places inside of you that still struggle to trust His goodness toward you.
This week, Dr. Alison is joined by bestselling author and radio host Susie Larson for an honest conversation about trauma, chronic illness, unanswered prayer, and what it means to keep trusting God when your circumstances remain painfully unresolved.
Drawing from her own experiences with childhood trauma, complicated pregnancies, chronic illness, financial strain, and seasons when God felt silent, Susie shares how she began moving from simply knowing she was saved to actually learning to live as someone deeply loved by God.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How trauma and disappointment can affect your ability to trust God
- The difference between knowing intellectually that God loves you and learning to live loved
- Why trusting God isn’t a formula for getting the outcome you want
- What Susie means by “contending” for what is true without slipping into striving
- The difference between expectation and expectancy
- Why trust can sometimes mean fighting for something and other times mean releasing control
- How fear and strong emotions can reveal beliefs beneath the surface
- Why you don’t have to wait until everything is resolved to begin living with purpose
- A simple practice for intentionally receiving and reflecting on God’s love
The invitation isn’t to figure out how to make God give you the ending you hoped for. It’s to become more deeply rooted in His love while the story is still being written.
Ready Susie Larson’s book More Than You Can Imagine: What God Does When You Trust Him
Listen to Susie Larson Live
More Resources:
Listeners get exclusive access to the first 3 chapters of Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul.
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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TRANSCRIPT
I mean, I will tell you, I'm a walking miracle. My doctor said I should be dead, and I really think
that. You're going to have open loops of trauma. Those open loops are the very places the enemy
gets in to get you to question God. I would say you contend in the places you're getting attacked.
The devil sees your potential long before you ever do. His threat to you is very connected to your
threat to him. You just got to go back to your childhood and think of the first time you felt
afraid, you felt not enough. You know that you have a very real enemy. I mean, if you're going to
feel crummy, if you're going to struggle in your... going to struggle anyway. So why not bear some
fruit, move some mountains, and slay some demons while you're at it? I mean, just get a dream and
follow the Lord in it, right?
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You. Today,
we're going to talk all about trust. And we're going to get into the nitty gritty of what trust
really looks like. The kind of trust that you have to wrestle for at times.
The kind of trust that's hard to come by when you've prayed for something and maybe the answer
hasn't come. Or the kind of trust when your body's been dealing with an illness or you've been
through something really frightening or something that might still be happening. It's the kind of
trust when someone has misunderstood you or a betrayal has happened. The kind of trust when you've
tried to be faithful and life still feels painfully.
unresolved at times. I hear all the time from people who are in situations just like these,
where you're doing your best. Maybe you're trying to even go to therapy and learn new skills and do
your part. And yet life is just really hard and you're not finding the answers that you seek.
And then we turn to this question, what does this mean about God.
I've been thinking a lot about this question lately. What happens to our capacity to trust God when
life has taught us to brace for disappointment? There's no doubt in my mind that those two things
affect each other. When life is hard, when things remain unresolved, whether in your finances,
in your health, in a relationship, influences our capacity to trust God.
Maybe you still believe God is good. Maybe you still study the scriptures, you know the right
verses. Maybe you've walked with God for years, but there may be places inside of you that don't
fully trust God's goodness toward you. One of the things I try to be intentional about,
especially on these deep dive episodes, is inviting guests on the podcast who help us see something
from an angle I may not naturally emphasize on my own. I spend a lot of my own time thinking about
the practices, the tools, the research, the science, the choices that are in our hands,
the things that we could do to help heal and grow and become stronger from the inside out.
And I believe so much. that work. But I also know there are places where our own effort reaches a
limit, places where faith asks us to reckon with mystery, surrender,
uncertainty, the spiritual realm, and what God may be doing beyond what we can see or control.
And it also may ask us to reckon with the reality that there is an enemy of our souls who's also at
work. around us. And this is one of the reasons I wanted to talk with my guest today, Susie Larson.
I've gotten to know Susie as a guest on her radio show over the past two years, and I find her very
curious and inquisitive and thoughtful. And I wanted to bring her on the podcast today to share
more from her own story. Susie is a bestselling author. She's a national speaker,
and she's the host of Susie Larson Live, which is a nationally syndicated radio show and podcast
that reaches millions of people. every week. She's written numerous books and she's known for
bringing deep biblical faith into honest conversations about suffering, fear, healing,
and hope. And she's got a brand new book out. It's called More Than You Can Imagine, What God Does
When You Trust Him. And Susie is someone who has had to wrestle with this question in an incredibly
personal way. She shares some of her story with us on the podcast, some childhood traumas,
as well as some painful experiences in her early 20s with complicated pregnancies,
long seasons of bed rest, financial strain, and a painful diagnosis that she still wrestles with to
this day. She doesn't come by this idea of trust. easily. She, to use her word,
has contended for it. And she's very clear that trusting God isn't a formula.
It's not a one size fits all. As she says in today's episode, trust can sometimes look like rising
up and fighting for something. Sometimes it looks like letting go. Sometimes it looks like resting
or waiting. And this is why knowing God, paying attention to God, attuning to God,
being with God matters. You have to know God's voice in order to discern what trust looks like in
your particular set of circumstances. As Susie illustrates for us in today's episode,
sometimes trusting God means standing up and setting a boundary. And sometimes trust looks like
almost the complete opposite. Sometimes it means releasing something you desperately want to
control or change or make happen. And that is really the heart of today's conversation.
It's not how do I get God to give me the outcome I want? It's how do I become a person who can
remain rooted in love? and trust even while so much of the story is still being written.
We talk about what trauma does to your ability to trust. We talk about the difference between
knowing intellectually that God loves you and actually learning to live as if you are loved.
We talk about what it means to wrestle each day for what is true without slipping into striving or
believing that you can somehow control the outcome. This is such a powerful conversation.
I'm thrilled to bring you my conversation with Susie Larson.
Suzy, I am so thrilled to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for being here and
sharing your story with us. Well, I appreciate your work, Allison. And it's always a joy to have
you on my show, which I know we've got you scheduled coming up soon. So congratulations on the
release of your book and how well it's doing. And thank you for having me. And thank you. And for
you too, it's fun to be in this with you. I was so excited because you've interviewed me a couple
of times. I always love our conversations. They always stick with me. You're so wise and
thoughtful. And so it's so fun to get to turn the tables and get to interview you and learn more
about your story. I would love, Susie, for you to just give my audience a sense of your background.
I've heard you describe. A couple of key moments in childhood that really stayed with you.
And then a couple of key moments when you were first married and as a young woman.
that kind of created this background for what you're speaking into with this new book.
Would you, just for my listener who's not yet familiar with your story, would you set that stage
for us a little bit? Absolutely. Honored to do that. And because it is context for why I talk the
way I talk, walk the way I walk, pray the way that I pray, because I've had to contend for things.
I've had to contend for the promises of God. And as everybody does, but I think if you just,
as you hear my context, you'll know where I'm coming from. So, you know, I was... in a large
family. I would say in a denomination, we went to church every Sunday. The Bible was...
you know, spoken about, but it wasn't, um, the gospel was really not preached. So I, I knew God was
real, but I say, I didn't know Jesus was accessible. I didn't know the gospel, but even as a child,
I sensed God's presence. I mean, I really did. I knew he was real. I was fifth of seven kids.
My dad was the mayor of our city. And so there was the sense that we, we should behave,
you know, and us girls, the four sisters, you know, we, we took the memo. My brothers, they didn't
get that memo so much. And, uh, but we're all very, very close now and God has done a deep, deep
redemptive work in our family. But back then when my mom needed to get a job to help put food on
the table, it was around that time that my brother started to hang with some pretty creepy friends
who were getting into things they ought not. And, uh, I didn't really like being in a two story
house, seven kids, friends coming and going. I didn't like being there. with those creepy friends
when my mom wasn't there. And I remember coming home from school one day and seeing their bikes out
in front and just got a pit in my stomach. Like I just, you know, I don't want to be here until my
mom comes home. So I thought I'll just go down in the laundry room, get my favorite sweatshirt, you
know, go up in my bedroom and read a book till mom comes home. And I'm literally down in the
laundry room with my hands in the dryer when I hear the door shut behind me. And I look back to see
four of my brother's friends. No brother, it was just these friends. And they were glaring at me
and I was trapped. And in a moment I was pinned to the floor. And I remember parts of it.
I don't remember how I got from hands in the dryer to pinned on the floor. But I remember walking
away from that experience. a totally different person. As you well know, it's like you have a
different nervous system when something like that happens. How old were you, Susie? I was nine. Oh
my gosh. Yeah. And it opened up like a canyon of insecurity for me. And our family,
our house backed up to a foster home. And my dad used to always say, love these people just don't
do what they do and I used to think I you know in my mind like oh they're just born that way you
know keeping making bad choices and like I didn't fault them I just thought you're born this way or
that way but when this happened to me because those boys would go hang with those girls and do the
things they did I started to really question was I Maybe I'm destined for that kind of a life,
you know, I mean, I was, and I've just had all this internal conflict, but I couldn't share it with
anybody. You didn't tell anybody? No, because my dad was a mayor and I, and these are my brother's
friends. And I just thought I'll bring scandal on the family. I just was so terrified of. what that
would unleash in our family because I was so aware that we are public. And so I stuffed it into the
basement of my soul, but I lived with so much conflict and so much fear inside about my own
identity. And when I was 10 years old, I still was only about four feet tall. I'm coming home from
school and I see those bikes out front and I literally say out loud, I don't care if God made me
this way. Those boys will never touch me again. And a different group of boys, I were hanging out
in a dugout and I just heard in my peripheral, get her. And they ran out of the dugout and they ran
me down and knocked me to the ground and beat me. And, uh, and I still remember the look in their
eyes. Like I do know now in my adult brain, they were high on something because they had this
crazed look and they were punching me in the face and pulling fistfuls of hair and kicking me in
the stomach. And it was just this, these boys. pummeling a little girl and I'm screaming and crying
and being jerked every which way. And it was so traumatic, Alison. And I've done a ton of work
around trauma healing, ton, ton, ton. But even to this day, if I see accidentally like a video of
someone being pummeled, it shoots a neurological surge through my body that I feel for a couple of
days. Like it's so demonic. It just is. I'm not, I'm not.
overstating that. I believe it is. It's just so evil. But I got up from that beating and I heard in
my ear, I can get to you anytime, anywhere, and God will never stop me. And I knew then that there
was a devil. you know, and that's when fear got in for me. And I got home and I was beaten.
And so my family comforted me and I put that comfort on that inner wound as well, you know, and
jump ahead. I, in a really beautiful way, God led me to himself when I was in about eighth grade, I
came to Christ, but I was still so broken. And I say, you know, then I knew I was saved, but I
didn't know I was loved. And so when I got into middle school, I was a decent athlete and I could
sing in the choir. And so I just used all those gifts that God gave me to. improve myself because I
just still was so broken and so insecure. So I was associated with the popular group because of my
physical ability, but I was so not a legitimate member because I had so much self-hatred and
insecurity. It's so interesting, Susie, you use this phrase. I've used this before or a similar
phrase. I pushed it into the bottom of my soul, the basement of my soul.
And it's so interesting as you're talking right now, it's like, and I want to tease this out as we
go, but
I hear what you're saying. Some good things then came in, a relationship with Jesus, some social,
and it touched a portion of your soul, but didn't get all the way to that basement of your soul
where that trauma had been pushed. It's just so real. Yeah, it is.
I often say when I'm speaking and telling this part of my story that the devil sees your potential
long before you ever do. And his threat to you is very connected to your threat to him. You just
got to go back to your childhood and think of the first time you felt afraid, you felt not enough.
You know that you have a very real enemy. And so for me, you know, I came to Christ and I'm
performing in middle school and even in high school, but I still was so broken. And you jump ahead
when as a young adult, as a Christian, finally released to run after Jesus. So I wanted to go to
the church that I wanted to go to and all of that. And I met my husband. Christian guy. And we got
pregnant on our honeymoon. surprise. And we were going to wait five years.
And the doctor said, actually, if you would have waited five years, you'd have no children because
I had a lot of abdominal pain during the pregnancy and turned out I had endometriosis. So they
said, you will have a hysterectomy in your twenties. So you need your babies right now. So I had
them one, two, three. And number two, I was on bed rest for three months because of an incompetent
cervix. Number three bit pregnancy, I was in bed rest for six months. Now come into marriage.
And how old were you at this time? I'm in my young twenties. Now I want you to think about this. I
was set free to run after Jesus. I was finally an adult. I could go to the church I wanted. I was
serving in five committees, you know, and part of that was passion, but part of it was I still had
something to earn or prove. So to go to bed rest for six months and have to call in every favor,
I can't even tell you the trauma that surfaced. And that's the thing is God will never leave you
broken. If you're following him, you're following a healer and he will allow the stuff. to surface.
So I, I, I'm trying to tell this as concisely as possible, but this is, you know,
so I'm on bed rest for six months and my friends are getting tired of me. I have a one and a three
-year-old and they're all taking turns watching them. And one of those boys is a strong-willed
child. So that was interesting, you know, uh, but people were bringing meals and they were getting
worn out. My husband was, I, it confronted all of the sense that I was a debt,
you know, and that I couldn't prove, I couldn't earn, I couldn't strive, I couldn't serve.
I just, and the Lord allowed that because it really showed me the cracks in my foundation. There
was probably three months into bed rest. I was six months along. The doctor said, you know, so
let's get you up to see if you're okay. Let's see if we can, you can manage being up and about
because it was strict bed rest. So I met my old college roommates. I live in the Midwest. It was a
fall day. We went for a very easy walk, had lunch, but it was too much. Went back to bed rest that
night and two weeks from that outing while still on bed rest. I pointed where my water bottle was
and the pins and needles shot out my arm. And then a base kind of a numbing,
buzzing feeling started at the base of my skull and crawled around to my whole face was pulsating
with numbness. And my vision started to move in. Yeah, a lot of really,
really scary symptoms crept up. And a friend was actually with me. She's like, what's the matter?
And I'm like, I don't know. Everything's going numb. And she was tired of me. So she said, you
know, if it's not one thing with you, it's another. And then she said, you know, I guess it's
personalities like yours that most often get MS, what she said. And so she left.
And I can't even tell you, Allison, the fear because I knew a woman from our church who had an
athletic event. I taught some fitness classes at our church and then I went down for this bed rest.
She was a runner, but she got diagnosed with MS and spiraled so fast. And this is what the enemy
does is gives you a visual of your worst case scenario to put fear into your heart. And so when she
left and I still have three months to go on this bed rest and I'm thinking that's my future. I've
called all in my friend, all my friend favors. They're all tired of me. This is my future. And God
just seemed so absent. And I came into marriage with so much passion and the heavens were silent.
The word in the Bible felt dead on the page and my face is going numb. And I just didn't know where
God was. And long story short, I delivered our son. And within that year. they ruled out MS,
they ruled out a brain tumor and they ruled in Lyme disease. And so that was three decades ago.
And to this day, I still deal with some neurosymptoms. It's been a long journey, but boy,
I mean, I will tell you, I'm a walking miracle. My doctor said I should be dead. And I really think
that, I mean, I've gone through some pretty deep, deep valleys with this battle,
but I, I'm not the same person and it's not been wasted on me. Yeah.
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So I just want to juxtapose this story you're telling us with the title of your new book,
which is More Than You Can Imagine, What God Does When You Trust Him. And for the listener who
feels like her story is too much, there's too much pain,
there's too much brokenness. You know, this is Susie what makes you so special in what you do
today. You talk about God. In such a beautiful way. And it's so real because I'm listening to you
thinking that's trauma stacked after trauma stacked after trauma with no time in between.
Right. You know, to really heal. None of that. You had the wound way down in the basement from the
trauma of being nine years old and assaulted. You've got, you know,
never mind the everyday wounds. Yeah. That we all come into with big family, middle child,
busy parents, you know, just the everyday stuff. Never mind the, you know, and again,
there's some good stuff in there that helps, but then never mind immediately getting pregnant,
immediately having difficult pregnancies, going into bed rest, and then a chronic illness, you
know, and I'm just kind of listing out losing friends. I know my, I know so many of my listeners
are, there's a way in which you feel seen. It's like, I, I'm not the only one.
Life is, it's just hard.
I just want to, that juxtaposition with this new book about more than you can imagine,
right? It doesn't mean what happened to you is okay. It is not. None of it is.
And I love that you so squarely call it evil. And you are someone who stands today in testament to
what God has done in your life. He's so good and he's so faithful and he's so patient and he's so
kind. And he is always writing a bigger story than we could possibly imagine. And I know this to be
true, that if you don't know the love of God, the devil will bait you into accusing God of things
that the devil is guilty of. We have a very real enemy. We do. And he's had our lives to study us.
And he's not threatened by us going through the Christian motions. of reading our Bible, checking a
box, singing the songs, checking the, he's not threatened by that. He's threatened of our
engagement. When we engage our hearts to say, this is hard, but my God will come through for me.
This is hard, but God is the strength of my heart. And I mean it. And the more that you see God
come through, the more you have him in your history, the more, you know, you've got a future with
him too. So I thank you for asking for backstory because you'll notice if you read my books or hear
my show, there's, there's a bit of a, a fight, you know, and I mean, like I'm contending,
I'm not going to put up with the stuff that the enemy throws my way. Even so you can't control
everything. There's not a formula to get life to work for you, but there is something to be said
about responding to the promises of God and of knowing the love of God and letting that love of God
change you. I would submit to you and I would be curious what you think about this, Alison, but as
someone who travels the country for women's conferences and been in media a long time, I'm
convinced there are lots of high level seasoned Christian leaders and pastors who have right
theology around salvation. They know they're saved. They don't know they're loved. And if you don't
know you're loved, you know what? You're going to have open loops of trauma. Everybody has trauma.
Those open loops are the very places the enemy gets in to get you to question God. And I think,
and the book is really so much about a number of things, but one of them is learning to live loved.
Because once you live from that place, you start to get a perspective that you otherwise wouldn't
have. Talk to me a little bit about some key moments early on that you began to bridge that gap of,
I know I'm saved. I don't know that I'm loved. When did you first begin to realize that?
And what were some early... steps that you took to begin to bridge that gap?
Wow. I love that question. So I've got a few in my mind, Lord, help me to remember all of them. One
of them was in the middle of the night. I mean, with Lyme, it would...
totally wipe out your short-term memory. And I mean, to be so young and have memory problems was
horrific for me. And with three little boys and not as many friends left and our medical debt
exceeded our income. So it was a dry and weary land. And God seemed so silent that I would just
throw these prayers up for healing. And it felt like they bounced off the ceiling. Like he changed
his mind about me, or I was a have not, or they're substandard Christians. I just could not, I was
still young enough in my faith. I couldn't. figure out what he was up to. And one night I'm like,
God, if not for me, for my boys, heal me for them. They need a mom. You know, I'm just so stuck in
bed and this is such a lopsided family because of this illness. I just, I hated it more than I can
possibly tell you. And the Lord just thundered through the silence and said, if I healed you,
would you praise? me. And I said, you wouldn't be able to shut me up. I'd praise you till the cows
come home. And he thundered again. Why is that? Because I gave my one and only son to die for you
so that you could know that you'd live forever with me or because you got your way. And I realized
in that moment that My walk with God up to that point had been transactional. As insecure as I was,
as fearful as I was, it was all about what I could get from God because it was so broken,
right? And so I literally, like my life passed before my eyes and I realized everything I had done
up to this point was either to preserve myself, to protect myself, to promote myself because I did
not know that I was loved. I mean, it really brought to, you know. 3D for me that your
righteousness is filthy rags. Any effort to add to what Jesus has done to earn love is just,
it's dirty rags. And I rolled out of bed and went to my face and said, Oh God,
I, you know, I see. the depths of my sinfulness, even in my efforts to try to protect,
preserve, or whatever. And I just said, if you never heal me, I will hate it. But you were my
savior. You're my Lord now. And I actually got up and wrote a poem in my journal.
If you want, I can share it with you because it really was about setting the record straight. See
if I can remember it. I think I titled it A Time for Everything. And it says, I've walked through
many storms. My prayers were filled with tears. the enemy was so big confirming all my fears to a
distant god i would ever cry just wanting an answer always asking why yet heard i not from him nor
his angels singing twas all that i could do his robe to keep on clinging then suddenly one night as
i beckoned him to be so real that i could feel him he finally spoke to me said he my daughter susy
i love you with my life no more would i ever hurt you than be the cause of your strife You see,
it's not my hand that's delivered all this pain, but it's true my hand is there to hold yours in
the rain. It's something how men see me according to their need. Instead of praise and faith,
they ask and beg and plead. I'm a God who doesn't change with this season. I don't have to explain
myself or give you detailed reason. I've given all that I could give when I gave to you, my son.
I emptied out myself for you as if you were the only one. What I do for you, I do for you because I
love you so. What I allow, I allow for you because I want you to grow. In faith,
praise, and trust, you will find you are strong. When demands are replaced by a faithful praise
song, it is there you'll find peace where there once was strife and it'll be just enough to have me
in your life. And that moment boiled down for me that I serve him on his terms and not mine.
It changed the way that I would walk with God. That was a big one for me. That's incredible. It
sounds, I mean, and I love that you do this in the book. You're sort of telling a modern parable
that reminds me very much of Job, the final moments with Job, right?
Where he's just so down and out and God is, you know. He's still setting the record straight.
This is who I am. He's setting his record straight. And I did not cause this. And yeah,
this is who I am.
Paradox, how God does that. And the paradox is that's,
I think, theologically, but in your experience, experientially, what made you actually realized he
loved you. Very much. See, the thing is with Job's story. It's not because he gave you what you
wanted in that moment. It's because he showed you who he really was. That's right. And how is love
for you? But that's such a hard thing for sometimes our little brains. to understand. Well, when I
look at Job's story and you look at, you know, all that he lost, his default response initially was
face down to worship and he did not get there overnight. He truly was a righteous man, just like
God said. But God knew that if you pushed him far enough, as all of us is true about all of us,
there's a little card in our back pocket. It's a quid pro quo, you know, but I did this for you. I
did this, like somehow you owe me, like you pushed me far enough, God, I'm going to rely on my
righteousness, my performance. to say, this is why you owe me something. He owes us nothing. He
owes us nothing. And so God does us a great service to say, I am God and you are not.
And to me, I came into, you know, just a revelation of the holiness of God, but I really did sense
his love. There was another time as a young mom, I'm on my knees reading the Bible and I'm like,
God, where's the victory here? I read about it as it was a young mom battling disease.
I'm fasting. I'm praying. We're flat broke. We got bill collectors calling me, you know, and I
don't see any freedom or breakthrough or victory. Where is it? And he thundered in my heart. You
know that. I know that you love me, Susie, but you don't seem to know that I love you. And until I
tell you differently, every time you want to say, I love you, Lord, I want you to turn it around
and say, you love me, Lord. So I would yell at my kids and I'd feel bad about it. And he'd say, say
it now. I mean, right here. You love me, Lord. You know, I'd wreck the dinner or something, you
know, because I'm not a great cook, you know, and I would, you know, burn the dinner and he'd say,
say it now. You love me, Lord. I'd fall behind on laundry. I love that reframe. You love me, Lord.
And the scripture does say it's not that we loved God. It is that he loved us. Exactly.
It's about his love, not our love. It's his love. And our love is in response to his love. But when
I'm speaking, I ask women to put their hand on their heart to say, I'm your treasure. I'm someone
you love. Half of them straighten up and turn into like, like it's beneath them.
But so it takes humility, I think, to live loved because it's like, we've got nothing if not for
the love of God. And then one more I'll just tell you about is I was on the floor with my three
boys. They're climbing all over me. My face is numb. My memory shot. I'm in young thirties and my
friends are on their second house or their addition and their kids are wearing name brown clothes.
And I just felt like. I've been left behind by God and I couldn't believe this was my life.
But I'm lying on the floor and they're crawling on me. I had no sense of purpose anymore just
because I thought this is my life. And a woman from church, a very godly woman called and she said,
Susie, I've heard the chatter about you. And I knew people were gossiping about me because Lyme
back then was just, they didn't know a lot about it. And it makes you look like a hypochondriac
because it's your body just betraying you every which way you turn. And I knew people were
gossiping and which was so hard for me, Allison, because if I needed attention, I would have asked
for it a different way. I'm a fitness person. I don't want illness. It's the last thing I want.
But anyway. She said, Susie, I've heard the chatter and I know you to be a woman who fears God. So
I brought your case before the Lord. And she said, listen to me, Susie Larson, the Lord has shown
me a platform that he's building with your pain that you'll speak from someday. So lean in and
learn everything you can because you'll have a story to tell. And as soon as we hung up,
I knew it was true. I mean, still the room was spinning. My face was still numb. The bills were
still piled up, but I knew in my knower. There's going to be purpose in this pain. And around that
time is when the Lord's like, do you believe these promises? Like, when are you going to shift your
weight onto them to see if they hold? And so I started to test the promises of God, you know,
and started to stand on the promises. And that's really how my faith was forged. Is that what you
mean? You're using this word contend. What do you mean by this word contend? Okay, I've got you.
I'm all at it here. I am passionate about this because I don't believe the abundant life just shows
up on your doorstep in a nice tidy boat. Jesus won it. It's ours. But we have a thief who steals,
kills, and destroys. And there's some places in... in your life, the enemy has stolen from you.
And my friend says there's a pattern of theft in everybody's life. And like, so for me that day,
when I got that call and the Lord confronted me, are you a believer just because you've secured
eternity? Or do you actually believe this stuff? Like, when are you going to stand on the promises?
Up to that point, because I had so much facial numbing, the doctors told me, don't be surprised the
day you wake up to facial paralysis. So every morning I would wake up and go. Is this the day my
face is going to freeze or droop? It was so scary to be a young 30 something. After that, every
morning I'd look in the mirror. I put my hand on my numb face. I point in the mirror and say, you
will not die, but live and declare the works of the Lord. That's what I mean by contending. I would
hold up my empty checkbook and I would say, my God will supply my needs. All the accusations that
the enemy was bringing. You're a pathetic mom. Your kids are never going to turn out, you know? I'd
put my hand on their head and say, you will be mighty in God somehow. I would say you contend in
the places you're getting attacked because we put up with too much. So in the places where there's
threat, there's intimidation, there is fear. You've got to get yourself a battle box, which I write
about in the book, where you've got your own scriptures and you rise up and say, this is what the
word says. And so I'm standing on the word and I'm not giving any more air time to these threats.
You're not saying. when I do this, God will then heal me. You're so clear, right?
It's more about, so tell me a little, tease that out for us a little bit. You're saying something a
little more nuanced than just, I hold up my checkbook and sit back and God fills my bank account.
Sometimes God doesn't fill the bank account or doesn't do the healing. So walk that, I love how you
nuanced this. Walk us through that a little bit for the listener who's saying, I'm trying to do
that, but I'm still... I'm sick or I'm still broken or my kids aren't turning out the way I wished
they would turn out, right? Like there's a subtle nuance to what you're saying about content that I
think is really important to tease out here. I love, I mean, if we would have gotten off this call
and you wouldn't have asked about that, that's one of those things that a couple would call you
back. Can we please revisit this? Because this is not. the health and wealth gospel. I don't at all
subscribe to that. And A plus B does not always equal C. You could parent beautifully and have a
prodigal. You can eat perfectly and get a disease. What I am saying is that I physically feel
better when there's faith in my heart. You can't please God without faith. And it's not formula.
It's an offering that promises a harvest. I would say parenting is an offering that promises a
harvest will look different than you think. You know, sowing your tears. God collects those tears.
So when I say contend, you know, let me put it this way. I've got a mentor who told me 25 years
ago, Susie. You need to know the difference between expectation and expectancy. She says
expectation is premeditated disappointment. It's you deciding what God should do for you to be
okay. It's you deciding, creating a bullseye. God, you have to hit this bullseye for me to believe
you are who you say you are. He is not bound by our dictates. But some people will approach prayer
that way or the promises that way. And when he doesn't, and he shouldn't because he's a good
father, you know. He does not jump through your hoops. He doesn't do what you say. Thank the Lord.
He's a wise enough father not to. People will go, well, I tried that. And so that doesn't work.
So I'm not going to pray. Where expectancy, on the other hand, is to say, I'm going to live with
wide-eyed wonder and an open heart before God. I don't know how. I don't know when, but I'm going
to see God move in his way, his time in a way that brings redemption to the bigger kingdom story.
And so when I say you're contending for the promises, what you're doing is stepping into the bigger
story and involving God in it. And that is one of the big purposes of this book is to show how
nuanced trust is. And one last thing I'll say about that is the enemy wants to pick you off.
He wants to isolate you. So let's go with the prodigal. If you've got a prodigal, the enemy is
going to attack you. You're a pathetic mom. You can't do anything right. This is all your fault.
It's never helpful. And yet we let that stuff linger unchallenged. What I'm saying is step into the
bigger story to say, you know what? Scripture says, this is not unique to me. I'm not the only one
going through this hardship. So Lord, I'm going to step into the bigger story. I'm going to make
the devil sorry he messed with me. This is just me. I'm going to pray not only for my prodigal, but
I'm going to pray for every brokenhearted parent out there. And Lord, I'm stepping into the bigger
story. Lord, you've forgiven my sins. You've forgiven the ways I've fallen short, but you have
collected my tears. You have heard my prayers. I did some things right as a mom. So Lord,
would you take that offering in your wisdom and your kindness? And would you blow the doors off of
the enemy's scheme against my family? And I'm going to wait. I'm going to watch. going to live with
an expectancy that you will somehow move in your way, in your time.
That's so good. You're, I love what you're a fighter. I love this. I love this part of you. You've
got that. I love that. That contending energy is amazing. I can feel it. And I love what you're
doing, Susie. That's such an important nuance. And I love it because it's very real in the book.
It's not letting a hard, you know, the marriage isn't getting. healed. The kid isn't suddenly
turning back. The disease isn't getting healed. You're not attaching your prayer and your faith to
the outcomes, but you are not going to let the enemy rob you of the bigger picture of what God is
doing. And I just love what you said, because I do think it's how we move away from shame and
resentment and the victim narrative. The enemy of our souls, you know,
Kurt Thompson calls shame, evil's vector, would love to keep us, which helps no one,
even in the midst. And I love how you said, it's not only I'm going to still trust you, God, and I
want you to talk about that because that's what the whole book is about. But I love how you even
took it one step forward. And I'm going to align in solidarity with every woman who's hurting in
this and every child who's like, that is. That's power. That's spiritual power.
It is. And that's the opposite of making an idol out of your pain. And I think we live in a day
where people are getting their identity from their pain and their affliction because they're
getting, we are, you know, there used to be that people didn't talk about their pain. And so the
pendulum now is like, I'm buying the t-shirt. I'm putting it in my profile. I am my pain.
But if you're a believer, you are not your pain. You are not your affliction. You are not your
prodigal. You're not your chronic illness. That's not who you are. And to me, you've got to come
out of agreement with that. And sometimes it's a convenient narrative because you're going to get
all kinds of compassion. There's no fruit coming out of that because that is based on a lie.
And it's false compassion, truly, because he's the God of all comfort. And, you know, and I've got,
you know, as a public person who happens to be an introvert, I do hear from people who say I should
be healed right now. I should be symptom free. If I had more faith, I would be. I've heard it all.
And people either have this sit in the school of speaking of healing. God never heals anymore to
God always heals. And if you're not healed, you missed a step. And I take the messy. middle. I know
he's still a miracle working God. I've seen with my own eyes, miracle healings. That hasn't
happened for me, but I am a walking miracle. I mean, mine's been a long journey and I think I've
needed the journey. Different kind of miracle. It is a different kind of miracle. And you know
what? I had so much trauma baked in. If he would have healed me one day, I would have lost it the
next because of infrastructures and belief systems. And then I know very godly people up till their
last breath. belief for healing. And people say, well, it didn't work. And it's like, no, they
graduated. Can you imagine the homecoming of the soul who has faith in their heart till their last
breath? I mean, do you know how heroic that is? We love to tidy it up in a bow. It's messy,
but faith is precious. And if we could know that our aim is to please and glorify him.
And again, to put the enemy under our feet.
I have two sets of godparents and they're all amazing, but my one godfather had polio. He was one
of the first people to get polio before the vaccine. And to the day he died,
and I tell you what, this man never was healed. I tell you what, this man ministered to more
people. And when he finally passed away, long, long life, living with polio,
he just wanted, thank you, Jesus. Right? So it's the contending may be the miraculous healing.
I love how you're saying that. And the miracle may be that your spirit, your soul...
The long, persistent way genuinely gets to the place of, I'm so grateful, Jesus, for this life
you've given me and for this opportunity. To me, I'm like, that's also a miracle.
And I don't wish that. We don't wish that. But I love what you're saying.
Our vision is so short-sighted. And you're such an invitation.
So Susie, with the time we have left, talk to us then what you mean by...
does it mean about trusting God? What is it really? You know, what is it and how is it different?
Kind of give us the thumbnail about what that looks like in action and in that place of living
loved and not, you know, you're kind of talking all around it,
but what does that mean when that is what the invitation is, no matter what we're facing?
Yeah. So if you look at the title, More than you can imagine what God does when you trust him, the
more than you can imagine comes from Ephesians 3, 2021. God is able, and look at how this
reverberates, do exceedingly abundantly above and beyond. It goes off the screen. All we could ever
dare to ask or imagine, but the clincher is according, according to his work within you. He has no
problem doing it. It's an easy thing in the eyes of the Lord, but he is a gentleman and he will not
force himself on you. And there are plenty of Christians who have so compartmentalized their faith
that they have not given him access to parts of their story. And you want to live an adventure of
faith, give him access to your story. Open up to those places where you're trying to preempt
outcomes. You're trying to control outcomes. If you're willing to invite him in and trust him in
those spaces, you'd be amazed at how faithful he is and where he leads you. So each chapter.
I have a modern day story of someone who trusted God and it shows Alison how nuanced trust is
because sometimes trust is rising up. Sometimes trust is letting go. And that's why you have to
walk intimately with God. You have to know that you're loved. And I say in the book, you're your
best version of yourself when you're walking in the spirit versus walking in the flesh. When you're
in the flesh, trust will not come easy because your dreams. are idolatrous,
your ambitions are idolatrous. When you're in the spirit, you see God for who he is and you'll
better see yourself for who you are. And then you'll discern what trust should look like. And in
scripture, there's times when trust and faith are interchangeable, but there's other times trust is
interchangeable with rest. And still other times trust is interchangeable with waiting on God. But
it always means across the board, I'm going to lean on God and live like he's true.
and that his word is true. I'm going to live like it's true. Could you give us an example,
either from your own life or one of the stories you feature in the book of this? Because I love how
you talk about trust doesn't always look the same for different people, different contexts, of
maybe two different experiences where trusting God required almost opposite responses.
Okay, and this is really good. Okay, so one of my favorite stories is my friend Melissa. And when
she was newly married, they felt very convicted to tithe, just to bring in the whole tithe.
And maybe she was, I mean, I don't know if they started at the beginning, but anyway, she was
pregnant, but they were still fairly newly married. And she happened to be reading in Malachi where
it says, and this is the one area where God says, go ahead and test me in it. And the Malachi
promise says a number of things, but one of the things that said is your fruit will not fall from
the vine before it's time. And something about that line leapt off the page at her. And she put her
hand on her womb because she was pregnant. And it just quickened within her. And she felt like the
Lord just made her a promise. You're going to carry that baby to term. And it just warmed her
spirit. And she thought, I'm going to be okay. Because, you know, you're nervous when you're a
first time mom, especially when you're pregnant. Well, she goes to church that Sunday. And this
woman who was kind of a self-proclaimed prophet of God or whatever, the one, you know, that always
speaks for God. God told me this. God told me that. We could do a whole nother show on that, but I
do believe God speaks, but you got to be so careful with all that, right? You got to be careful.
But she marches up to Melissa and says, God told me you're going to deliver six weeks early. And
Melissa goes, wait, what? And it set her back, as you can imagine. And she kind of puts a
protective hand on her woman. She goes, no, God gave me a promise. I'm going to carry this baby to
term. No, God told me. Every Sunday, this woman would be lined up every Sunday after Sunday after
Sunday. When Melissa was 10 weeks early, her body started to show signs of early labor.
And she went to the doctor and he's like, your cervix is thinning. You're preparing to deliver. And
she went out of the doctor's office crying. And I don't know what you're going to think about this
next, Allison, but this is her story, and I think it's powerful. But she's a lawyer, and so one of
her colleague, lawyer friends from another state, called her and said, you're on my heart so much.
What's going on? And she was crying, and she's like, this is what happened. God gave me this
promise. This woman keeps speaking for God. I just came from the doctor. I'm delivering, and it's
10 weeks too soon. And she said, Melissa, she said, that woman spoke a verbal curse over you and
you did not refute it. And she said, because you let it in, your body is aligning with those words
that were not from God. She says, we're going to refute this. We're going to renounce it. And
you're going to repent of giving any air time to this word. And you're going to come back into
agreement with the promise God gave you from the beginning. And so she's like, I never knew I could
do that. I didn't know this was a thing. And so she's, she repented. Lord, I'm sorry. I gave air
time. You did give me a promise. I refute that. And I'm coming out of agreement and I refuse fear.
I'm going to stand on the word. I really believe I heard from you. Long story short, she delivered
that boy on his due date. And then she delivered child number two on his due date.
She delivered all five kids. on their due date. It was as if God was saying, I'm just showing you I
can. I keep my promises. Now, that's not prescriptive for everybody. It just so happened.
It was a promise. Yeah. And I just think there's something powerful to be said about knowing God's
voice well enough where you go, wait a second here. Because when that woman beelined to her after
that friend prayed with her, she opened her mouth and Melissa put her hand up and said, don't talk
to me. She says, my husband, he's over there. You see him? If you think you have a word, you go
tell him, but you don't get to talk to me about my baby or me ever again. Okay,
you got my... Now, because I have this part of me that's always trying to look at the science.
Because I believe in the spiritual. I've heard stories. I mean, and this is the thing about not
prescriptive. Right. Right. There's different stories for different people. But what is so
fascinating about that, Susie, that story is to me is that action. I mean, this is kind of boundary
stuff. Yes. Right. It's not only emotional and mental health.
There is a spiritual component to it, right? There's a boundary there. You do not get access.
And whether you, you know, whether that's magic, you know, you know, whether that's, you know,
sometimes I think people can, you know, me, you know, I have this side of me and I'll just, I love
the story, but it's like, you know, there's people can take those things to kind of these extremes,
of course. But that, that just that, I love that image of.
Yes. I mean, that stuff comes into us somehow, you know, and it affects us.
And so I love that as an example of one way that for...
refute that. And thou shall not that you shall not pass. You've proven yourself not trustworthy.
And it's cost me to listen to you. So this is where this stops. And she said she physically felt
strength rise up in her because she knew it was the right thing. And the other story that I want
you to read if you get the book is about Otto. Otto Koenig is a missionary in New Guinea, and his
trust was letting go. He was getting so worked up on people who were stealing from him. And the
Lord said, this is mine. They owe me now. They don't owe you anymore. And he released the debt that
they owed. And God intervened in a way that was. It's amazing. It's such a good story. This is why
you've got to know his voice. This is good tease. Yes, yes. You've got to know his voice so you
know what trust looks like. I love that juxtaposition of the letting go and the refuting.
And that, again, it's not prescriptive. And I love,
Susie, I just want to thank you as we're winding down here. I'm aware, as a psychologist,
I can overweight our responsibility piece.
Maybe not even overweighted, but at least that's where I – what is mine to own here?
And I love that you're coming in in your own story and here's what God does. I just –
it's ministering to me and I know it will minister to my audience, right? Because we do – we have
responsibility in this. We have to make the choices. We have to – And I know you've done,
and here's what God does. Here's what God does. And it's never to earn. It's always because we are
loved. What are some just final words you would say for the woman who's listening, who has been
maybe doing the therapy, doing the work, praying the prayers, trying to stay faithful,
and yet maybe still finds herself in a place where the relationship isn't healed?
The child is still, she's still worrying about, you know, what is one thing you would encourage
this woman to do to trust, to reach toward God in trust today?
I actually have three things, if you don't mind, because they feel all equally important. I have a
brain scientist on my show, Dr. Lee Warren, every month. And one of the things he said is, yeah,
he's a good, good friend. But he said, your most powerful emotions reveal your deepest beliefs.
So I would say, even though you're in process, aren't we all? I mean, you know, even though things
aren't where you want them to be, I just don't know that they will be till we see Jesus face to
face. And we all have. our burdens and our battles and our broken hearts. But on the days when your
feelings and your emotions about those things are super pronounced, I would just back up a little
bit to go, what am I believing right now? Because it is revelatory of this accumulated belief
system that we acquire over time dealing with chronic issues, whether it's marriage, whatever.
We acquire belief systems that aren't really serving us because they're not in agreement with what
scripture says. So it has helped me so much because I still have days. I wake up, everything goes
numb. I feel inflammation in my brain. My tongue isn't as sharp as I need it to be because I have
inflammation and I hate it. I can't, I mean, at this age and stage, I can't tell you how excited I
am to get my new body. I'm just being honest. But when the emotion of it comes up, it's like, what
am I afraid of? What am I really believing right now? So I would just use that as a tool to step
back for just a moment and analyze. Because if you've walked with God, you've got some core beliefs
that you actually truly believe. You might just feel like this thing is true. So it's a perfect
time when the emotion is surfaced. They even say in neuroplasticity, when the live wire is going
wild is exactly the time to redirect. It's exactly the time to go. who are you and where are you
coming from? And I'm going to put you on the path of redemption. So just, you know, all your
emotions, as I'm sure you teach all the time on this podcast, they're not always good counselors
are telling you the truth. So you get to be a work in progress without the condemnation, but your
emotions are going to lead you astray sometimes. So just maybe discern. What are you believing in
the moment? The other thing, one of the things the Lord showed me was you don't have to feel well
to be powerful. I want to feel well. When I feel well, I feel so happy.
But he told me that years ago when I was begging him to heal me, you don't have to feel well to be
powerful in the kingdom. And I remember it was just a few years ago. So not very long ago, I was
standing. I spoke at a family camp and I told some of my story and my hubby,
I don't even know what any of my books cost and I don't want to know. He works the table, right?
And so he's standing there checking people out and I just stand there and pray with people. And
this woman looked down the table at the books I'd written and she's like, okay, I heard that story.
And I see all like, where did you get the strength to write these books? And it never occurred to
me. I almost started crying. I looked down the table. I'm like, Oh, my word. And I,
you know, I remembered what he said. You don't have to feel well to be powerful. I would say the
number two thing is don't postpone dreaming and getting a vision. Don't wait for all your ducks to
line up before you. dream big dreams with God. I mean, you know, it's like every time I start a new
book, I feel like an imposter. Every time I stare at a blank page, I hear you don't know what
you're doing. I'm like, I agree. But still, you just take it one step at a time.
And before you know it, I mean, if you're going to feel crummy, if you're going to struggle in your
marriage, you're going to struggle anyway. So why not bear some fruit, move some mountains and slay
some demons while you're at it? I mean, just get some. Get a dream and follow the Lord in it,
right? We all need you in our ears.
And the final thing, this came from another neuroscientist that was on my show years ago because I
had a pretty bad relapse 10 years ago that affected my brain in a pretty significant way with mold.
I had seven areas on an MRI that showed some like what they call brain damage and it was affecting
me cognitively and even diction in my speech. It was a nightmare. But I wanted to know how to like
rewire my brain. I wanted to know how to heal. And he said, I've got an assignment for your
listeners. And so I'm going to leave you with this, Allison, an assignment for your viewers and
followers, because this will change you like you can't believe. He said, I want you to spend 15
minutes a day for the next 30 days meditating on the love God has for you.
Not on the love you have for him. That can be another 15 minutes. But this 15 minutes is you,
whether it's a worship playlist, whether you're writing out paraphrased scripture, whether you're
just saying it over and over again, God, I just thank you for your love. I thank you for every
detail of my life. I thank you that you're in every moment where you're just receiving and
believing his love. He said, you do that 15 minutes a day after a month. If you were to take labs
like before and after, your inflammatory markers would go down. Your labs would literally improve.
Your brain scan would look different. Think about that. But most of all, what would that do to your
faith perspective? I just don't, I think we're, we're perpetual forgetters. We have air amnesia and
you don't default to faith, hope, and love. You default to fear, insecurity, blaming,
judging, victim, all the stuff. The only way you're going to default to faith, hope, and love is if
you apply yourself to it, is if you make such a case for it in your heart and in your mind, that
that's what your brain and your heart know because you're. Building resilient trust. And so that
would be my assignment is just spend 15 minutes for the next 30 days and see what happens in your
life. Building resilient trust. Love that.
Susie Larson, you're just a gem. Tell us where we can find this book and all the things you're
doing in the world. Well, thank you, first of all, for having me. I just treasure you and God has
so uniquely placed you. in your story and in the kingdom story for such a time as this.
I mean, really, nobody does things like you do, Alison. And so I just really do honor the gift of
God in you. So thank you for what you do and for having me. Suzy Larson Live is the name of my
show. And as I said at the beginning, you're going to be joining me pretty soon here to celebrate
your amazing new book. You can list it on podcast wherever, but it's a live show.
You could find the app or live stream it. Just look for Suzy Larson Live. You'll find it. And then
wherever books are sold, more than you can imagine, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, wherever, you'll find
it. And I pray it blesses you. It's a great book. We'll link to it in the show notes. And I know
it's going to bless a lot of people. We just... appreciate you so much and for your honesty and
transparency and all that you've contended for. You've left me thinking about what that means.
I think that's just a powerful contending for, and really what I'm hearing you say is contending
for the reality that God loves me. Exactly. And all that that means. And when you know his love,
you will trust his ways. Because I mean, it's his love that doesn't give you everything you want
when you want it. You know, I mean, it's like when you open yourself up to the bigger story and you
realize he's playing the long game, you will trust him with his ways. And yeah,
it's nothing like walking with God. Thank you for sharing it with us. Yes.
God bless you, my friend. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It
would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
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the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.
Sexual wounding shows up in so many different ways, and it affects so many men and women.
Maybe something happened that felt off, invasive, confusing, or inappropriate, but you told yourself it wasn’t a big deal. Maybe you’ve never used the words sexual abuse or sexual violation because what happened didn’t fit the picture you had in mind.
In this week’s episode, Dr. Alison is joined by trauma expert and bestselling author Dr. Dan Allender for a compassionate conversation about sexual abuse, sexual wounding, shame, trust, and the road toward healing.
Dan explains why abuse is not only about a single event, but about how that event becomes woven into the larger fabric of a person’s story. They explore why so many people minimize what happened, how involuntary body responses can create profound shame, and why these wounds often surface years later in our ability to trust, receive love, hope, and connect intimately with others.
You’ll learn:
- What sexual abuse and sexual wounding can look like beyond the narrowest definitions
- Why shame can linger long after an experience is over
- How abuse affects trust, hope, intimacy, and your relationships
- What parents can do when a child shares that something uncomfortable or violating happened
- How to approach your story with honesty, compassion, and dignity
Sometimes the first step is simply being willing to say: Something happened that wasn’t okay. And I want to understand how it has shaped me.
To find out more about The Allender Center workshops visit theallendercenter.org/workshops
or email the Allender Center team directly at programs@theallendercenter.org
Read Dr. Dan Allender’s books:
More Resources:
Listeners get exclusive access to the first 3 chapters of Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul.
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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TRANSCRIPT
Abuse is never accidental. There's always the intent and often a kind of setting the victim up.
There is grooming that occurs. It's a violation that breaks trust.
We can say almost 91% of abuse is perpetrated by someone whom the victim knew beforehand.
Sexual abuse and all forms of abuse don't happen in a vacuum. It isn't just a single event,
but it's how the single event rings in the... of the larger portion of his life.
None of the work of true healing occurs in any instantaneous drop.
The freedom to be able to go, this is the journey, it's not going to come quickly. Once you begin
that process, you need more information.
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's deep dive episode of The Best of You. I'm so
thrilled to be here with you today. I want to begin today's episode with just a little more care
than I normally do because we're talking about sexual abuse and sexual wounding.
And this is a sensitive topic for many of us. And some of what we discuss in today's episode may
touch on memories or questions or feelings you weren't expecting. So I just want to remind you.
that as you listen, and this applies to any episode, but you always have the freedom, please do
take care of yourself. You can pause, you can come back later, you can choose to skip this one.
It's just not for you right now. You don't have to force yourself through anything that feels like
too much. With that being said, I really wanted to have this conversation on the podcast because
sexual abuse isn't rare. It's not a fringe experience. The numbers vary depending on how
researchers define abuse and how they ask the questions. But even conservative estimates tell us
that an enormous number of women and men carry some history of sexual violation.
And I could honestly think of no other person I would rather take this deep dive with than my guest
today, Dr. Dan. Allender. Dan is the author of the bestselling book, The Wounded Heart,
along with numerous other books on trauma, healing, relationships, and the importance of engaging
our stories. He's spent decades helping men and women understand the impact of all different kinds
of sexual abuse and betrayal. And through the Allender Center, he's trained therapists, ministry
leaders, and individuals in how to engage these stories with wisdom and compassion and care.
Dan just brings such a wealth of wisdom. He's spent so many years... in the trenches with people.
Such an honesty, such a clear naming with such a tenderness that he brings to this topic.
One of the things we talk about in today's conversation is that many of the people who carry these
wounds would never use the word sexual abuse to describe what happened to them.
They might say something like, something weird happened or, man, an adult made me feel
uncomfortable or someone exposed me to something sexual before I was ready. There was touching.
I didn't understand, right? They might use sort of these vague terms to describe the experience.
Maybe someone crossed a boundary or an atmosphere felt uncomfortable. But above all,
they'll often say, I told myself it wasn't a big deal. And this is part of what makes this
conversation so important because the very experiences we minimize or dismiss can become woven into
the larger fabric of our stories. They can shape trust and closeness and how we experience shame
and what we come to believe about ourselves. We talk in this episode about what sexual abuse and
sexual wounding can actually look like, why so many people minimize these experiences and the
profound role that shame can play, particularly when your own body responded involuntarily to
something you did not want. We talk about how these wounds can surface years later in intimate
relationships, our capacity to trust and receive love, and even in our relationship with God.
Dan also speaks directly to parents about what to do if a child tells you. something happened, how
to become a grounded, protective presence when something painful comes to light. And we talk about
healing and the importance of simply getting curious. Sometimes the beginning is simply being
willing to say something happened that wasn't okay, or something isn't well inside of me and I want
to understand. Why? I love how Dan says that you cannot change what you do not name and you cannot
heal what you're not willing to feel. But he also pairs that truth with tremendous gentleness.
There isn't a rush. You don't have to heal on someone else's timeline.
You can tell God or a safe person or a trusted advisor, I know I need to look at this and I can't
do it right now. And that honestly in itself can become part of the healing.
process. So whether this is part of your own story, part of the story of someone you love, or you
simply want to understand how to respond with greater wisdom and compassion. I think this is such
an important conversation. And I also want to add, and Dan will touch on this at the end of the
episode, but if you've been wondering where you could get help, where your story could be held with
deep care, or if someone you love comes to mind as you listen, we want to personally invite you to
consider joining the Allender Center for a men's or women's recovery week. These are in-person
experiences. designed specifically for people who are ready to begin engaging a history of sexual
abuse alongside trained leaders and others who are walking a similar road. And Dan describes in our
conversation how powerful it can be to hear other people's stories and little by little begin to
unpack your own. You can learn more about those resources at theallendercenter.org slash
workshops, or you can email the Allender Center team directly at programs at theallendercenter
.org. We will link. to both of those links in today's show notes. This is a tender conversation,
but also a rich and deeply hopeful one. Here's my conversation with Dr. Dan Allender.
We haven't actually had a whole episode devoted to this topic, and I was looking up numbers. I want
to kind of throw these out, but you correct me with how you see the numbers on this.
But as I was... Kind of researching it, it looks like current estimates suggest that about one in
four girls and one in 13 boys experience some sort of sexual abuse before age 18.
Do you agree with those numbers? Not even for a moment. The reality is most of the time,
those are what could be called paper and pencil tests. And so how do you get the information?
You ask people. But so many people don't even have a category of what is sexual abuse.
So when asked. have you ever been sexually abused i would imagine there are so many people who
answer no but if i were to say well what do you do about the uncle who used to walk in on you while
you were showering and clearly ogling your young body
That would generally be called weird. He was just weird. But to actually say one does not need to
be physically touched to be sexually abused. There are forms of visual sexual abuse being presented
as pornography or being invited to see pornography. It's a form of abuse.
So I think the reluctance we have as a culture to do really good.
interview research. There was a woman by the name of Diane. E.H. Russell,
Incest in the Lives of Girls' Women. This was published back in 1986, and there's been nothing
comparable on what she found by interviewing. Well, you're not asking a question directly like
that, but hearing more a person's story, she found one out of every three women had been abused in
a way that constitutes a legal criminal definition of sexual abuse.
When she actually opened the door to a conversation like what I just put words to, where there's
visual, verbal sexual abuse, she found that it was 54% of the women she interviewed had a history
of past abuse. So I think the figures, again, I don't mind a narrow definition,
but when you do that and you create a legal definition,
You're ignoring the fact that abuse comes in various forms, but with the deep sense of violation.
So one out of 13 men, I think that's nuts. So what I would say is the other research where it's
more interview based comes closer to one out of four men have a history of past abuse.
So half of women and one out of four men. Yes. Ish. Yeah. I mean, that anecdotally fits my
experience just being in practice. There's just it's just so common to your point.
Yeah. These, you know, call them sexual impropriety that may not in someone's mind register as
sexual abuse, but that hurt and created a wound. Indeed. And yeah.
And so talk to us. So what. You know, you're kind of getting at this, but what do you wish people
understand? You've kind of talked about a couple of the categories about what actually constitutes
sexual abuse or sexual wounding. How do you look for it and how do you understand what constitutes?
this broader category that we're talking about? Well, to begin with just a simple definition,
whenever someone uses you for their sexual pleasure without your consent, it is a violation.
It is a form of abuse. There are other words that could be applied to it, but... reality is it's a
violation that breaks trust. And almost, we can say almost 91% of abuse is perpetrated by someone
whom the victim knew beforehand. About 24% in family or incest.
That leaves a vast amount of abuse perpetrated by a teacher, by a neighbor,
by whomever. But the knowledge of. So there has been some relationship established.
Some relationship established in almost all these contexts, and we can say this bluntly,
abuse is never accidental. There's always the intent and often a kind of setting the victim up.
So there is grooming that occurs. And that grooming often is with an awareness of the family that
at some level... that perpetrator knows the victim will not be protected and probably won't be
believed so there's just a deep sense of violation through betrayal which leaves us oh my gosh so
hard to trust, especially authorities or people in power who violate.
And so when it's perpetrated within the church by a youth pastor, now we've got not only sexual
abuse, but a form of spiritual abuse that overlaps with so many different senses of how do I trust
God? How do I trust others? But even how do I trust myself? You also,
generally speaking, have a sense of powerlessness, meaning you could not stop the abuser,
which leaves you in a sense of almost impossible to hope. And so many of the men and women I've
worked with over decades, it's like I gave up desire. I gave up dreaming.
I gave up the ability to, in one sense, anticipate the future because I felt so powerless.
betrayal with powerlessness but the hardest of all is the fact that when the abuser touched you in
any form primary secondary sexual body parts or just your hair your face but clearly for their
arousal there's a sense in which touch even skin increases our sense of dopamine it increases
oxytocin bonding by a chemical, but it's in a sense of threat which raises all our stress by a
chemical. So that combination, that arousal connection but threat leaves us with this,
I don't know how to put it better, the arousal brings the judgment of what's wrong with me.
So, so many people have a phrase like this, I felt dirty, I felt fouled.
bad. And in that, I can tell them a million times over, it's not your fault.
And there is truth to that sentence, but it's not as helpful as we would wish.
One has to engage the issue of what is the shame that your body has experienced in the context of
your body feeling any level, even the teeniest level of arousal.
So the judgment, oh my gosh, that is the real war to address with regard to abuse.
This is so I love that we're just diving in here so that it sounds like, again, what I think I hear
you saying is to a couple of things are happening. There is an arousal, which is autonomic,
automatic. It's outside of your control. Exactly. And yet you're also aware this shouldn't be
happening, even though that's also outside of your control. Indeed. And are you saying then that
the most common way? That someone makes sense of that is there must be something wrong with me.
Yes. You know, if we connect shame, and I think the reality is the depths of the war that we have
to face is what culturally we don't have good language for. And certainly in the believing
community, we don't engage the power and the importance of addressing shame,
even though. The last verse before Genesis 3 is, and they were naked and they knew no shame.
So in so many ways, the rest of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are addressing God's
engagement with shame and taking shame on to himself on our behalf.
But apart from that, the reality of we don't address shame, but we cover it through contempt.
And contempt is another form of judgment. We judge ourselves or others.
And in that power, you see it's a restoration of power, but it's counterfeit. It leads you to
feeling like you have some level of control. Like, I'm an idiot. I can't believe I allowed that to
happen. In your rage against yourself, you restore just this modicum of power yet.
Contempt is the lingua franca of evil. It's the language of evil. So when we begin to face the fact
that evil, the kingdom of evil, loves trauma. sexual abuse because of its power in a single event
to in some sense shatter but also sear our own sense of being with this uncommunicable reality that
we're left with and nobody can know we hope we can just get by it but it just again lingers in a
way in which especially over Decades and decades, there's this, from my standpoint,
the gift of the Spirit calling us to engage what we have attempted to avoid.
Again, we're kind of diving into the complexity of it. So there's the contempt. I think that's such
a great word there. There's that inner contempt, the shame. And then coupled with where we started,
which is we're not naming this. sexual abuse in many cases.
We're not even consciously naming. So all of this is happening inside for many people.
Is that, am I saying that correctly? Absolutely. I worked with a man who had a long history of
sexual promiscuity, a lot of struggle with pornography. But as we began to think through what was
the war for him, You know, he sort of casually just went, well, you know, when I was about 13,
I got invited up to this tree house and some weird stuff happened. Often the word weird becomes the
euphemism for violation. And I'm like, well, what happened? He goes,
ah, nothing big. Well, you brought it up and he eventually invited me into the clubhouse.
where not only were older boys showing him pornography, but in one sense,
teaching him how to masturbate. And of course, a kind of mutual touch.
Mutual? Come on. No, it was an abusive setting. And the shame,
even the comparison of his body as a younger boy to older boys was part of the shame,
part of the shame of being touched. It couldn't be addressed. If I looked at his life,
history of profound addiction, not only with pornography, but with alcohol and workaholism.
He was an extremely well-to-do man because the energy to prove he's a man was pouring through an
effort to resolve so much of the shame of what happened when he was 13. It was staggering to him to
think this was the wellspring. I'm not excusing the other behaviors, but it was the wellspring of
where so much of his war was that he had just not been willing to address.
There was a root. And in his mind, it was nothing.
Something weird happened. Totally dismissed. And is that your experience, that there is typically a
core, maybe a series, but a core root? like that in these stories?
One of the things that we say when we train people to engage this is sexual abuse and all forms of
abuse don't happen in a vacuum. So in that sense, it isn't just a single event,
but it's how the single event rings in the context of the larger portion of his life.
And this particular man had been, in so many ways, disparaged and humiliated by his father.
And in some ways, in a very strange relationship with his mother. All that to say,
our task is not just to look at the single event, but to look at the fabric.
But where the fabric bunches up, where there's a sense in which there's something here that just
feels like it has to be unknotted, that's the work of looking into the particular events of abuse.
You've touched on this a little bit, but how do these, I love how you call it a fabric,
the fabric of abuse, the whole context of it, the moments and everything that leads to that.
How does this show up in our adult relationships? What are some of the cues that you look for?
Well, let's go back through those categories. Trust, where you...
You know, you have a beloved spouse, but you really don't trust them. Well,
every marriage is somewhat broken, but at the deepest level, I mean, I trust no one more than my
wife. But where there are failures of trust, where there's something suspicious,
and maybe even to a point of hypervigilance, what I would say is, oh my gosh,
how exhausting that has to be, that you're looking at virtually every person and situation with a
certain lens of paranoia, that's a good indication that there is a war within you regarding trust.
It may not be sexual abuse, but at least it's something of significant trauma that's left you at a
point where you think you're the only person you can trust and you don't even trust yourself.
Well, when you begin to see people who struggle with hope, who just don't seem to have In one
sense, we all have the uncertainty of death and life, but where there is kind of that,
again, back to that not, like dreaming, desiring, you're a fundamentalist in the sense that it's
black and white and you just want good things and nothing else. The absence of desire is a lack of
hope. So the ability to begin to go, oh my gosh,
why are you? maybe a frank way of putting it, but why are you so constipated?
But also people who are flooded with hope, but in a kind of entrepreneurial way where they're
taking risks at levels that just feel like, are you out of your mind? So that extremity on one side
or the other often is an indication of you don't know what to do with daily kind perseverance.
But I think the deepest indication is we all struggle to be known and to be loved.
But where there is this, I'm able to give to you, but I will not let you give to me.
If you can see the fabric of my body was touched, I was aroused. I will never let someone touch me
like that again. And I don't mean just in violation. I will let no one give me.
I'll give to you. And many of the people I've worked with are profound givers of goodness.
But when you attempt to give to them, you face their distraction,
their dismissal, in many ways, their denigration. Those are just,
to me, signals of, oh, my friend, you have a war within you. Can we ponder it?
That's so good. There's a couple of ways I want to go with this, but one is I'm hearing some of
those when we see those extreme protectors, the defendedness, the need to control,
the need to shut out. I think that's so interesting what you're saying. Shut out receiving the
touch of your warmth because I don't trust the warmth of a touch. Maybe not even literally.
That makes so much sense. Yes. If I can just remind you, Alison, you've just done such profound
work. helping us engage those particular parts. Yeah. that I've just found for my clients for
myself being able to invite them into your writing has opened up in one sense that sense of why is
it that my body my heart is so reluctant to receive what it is I know I was meant for so yeah this
this is this is the realm we've both been working in for a long while.
I want to get into the healing place. But before we go there, I'm thinking of the parents who are
listening, who are wondering, what happens if I have a child who comes to me with something now?
So we've got the category of something happens years ago, and it gets covered over with all of
these defense mechanisms, all of these ways of surviving. And we have to kind of go back. But what
about When we're aware something has happened, how can we be of help to our children if they come
to us and say something weird happened? Yes. Well, and again, I'm assuming you're meeting adult
children or are you talking? No, I mean, I mean, like. Like I'm just as we're listening,
I'm thinking of those parents who are dealing with this as we speak. Yes.
And I want to before we get into the healing of the adults, I want to talk to the parents who are
worried. How do I speak into this now? Right. Because I have I think my kid something weird is
happening. They're not really opening up about it. Or maybe I do know what does a child need in
that moment when something happens? If something were to happen again, it's such a.
Beautiful and crucial question. Let me start with the adult, though. What if your 30-year-old
daughter finally admits to you that she had a history of abuse? The worst sentence that you can say
is, I didn't know. Even if you didn't know, it's really a way of saying,
don't hold me culpable for not dealing with the abuse. And it's,
again, a hard thing, and it's a whole other topic. So I'll just say, When you're dealing with this
topic, you have to tend to your own heart first. You have to tend to your own panic or your own
guilt or your own internal world and maybe even your own past story that you've not addressed.
So I think the first thing, if your child says something like, I don't want to be around this
uncle. I just feel weird with him whenever I'm with him. First of all, don't gaslight the child.
Oh, you're making nothing of something. No,
it's the opposite. Anyway, you get my point. So step back and be able to say,
I would love to hear more. And do you feel comfortable inviting me into hearing a little bit more?
In other words, don't ask questions. Ask permission. And that begins to give a context that the
child is not going to have this deluge, this onslaught of questions upon questions.
What did he do? Why do you feel that way? You know, again, it's back to, will you tend first to
your own panic? And again, I'm not saying this is easy by any stretch, but in tending to your own,
you can create a much more safe environment where you've invited and knowing this is not going to
be a single conversation. I would also say thank that child for the courage to tell you anything.
Can we enter in? Is it safe for you to feel and do so? But thank you for telling me because no
matter what, anytime you're uncomfortable with someone, it often feels like it's your fault.
And I'm so grateful that you're not doing that. So you've set the parameters to now be able to say.
There's nothing you can tell me that is going to change my heart and my commitment to you.
So it may not be easy, but we can work through whatever has happened or whatever you're feeling.
And if the child begins to say, well, I was taking a walk with him and he put his hand down the
back of my pants. Now, in and of itself, I count that as sexually abusive.
However, it could be worse. So don't minimize, but be able to now step into the story and allow the
child to know this will indeed never happen again.
And that's where you need to be clear. The relationship with that uncle who put his hand down the
back of your child's pants will never be the same without incredible ownership confession and
repentance and even then a protective shield that i would never let that child be with that person
literally through the remainder of their childhood so in other words you have to follow up with
regard to the heartache and the narrative into a stance of protection and that can obviously create
And I've seen it happen in many families where at one level, the sister of the man who did that,
it's like, I can't afford to lose my family. And I'll lose my family if I confront my brother.
Everyone will say I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. No, you are protecting your child from
likely a predator. That's so helpful, the tend to your own panic. Because I do see that.
That's part of why I ask the question. I see parents. Because it's awful. It's one of the most
awful things we can imagine happening to a child. I do think about Jesus' love of the children and
how precious and sacred that innocence of children is and that betrayal and that exploitation of
trust is among the most evil things. And as a result of that,
parents can panic, which is understandable. And also the child needs more than ever in that moment,
that grounded, safe presence. So I think that's helpful just as we continue for the listener,
if they're experienced any of that kind of, you know, right now, that's why we're having this
conversation is trying to equip with tools so that,
A, if we're the one this has happened to. we recognize there's a path to healing.
And if we're the one loving someone, whether it's a child or an adult, who this is in their
background, and maybe they're not able to talk about it yet. And maybe they're still minimizing
that we're equipped because our panic won't help. But there are things we can do that will help.
Yeah, yeah. Dan, you said something a few minutes ago, you said that Our Christian church doesn't
have great language for this.
Even though we see in the life of Jesus just this profound honoring of childlike innocence and
children, spiritual language, I think, can sometimes complicate. What do you see?
What should we be aware of? And how can we not be part of the problem?
Well, the idea that almost all beginning change comes with the courage to simply say what seems to
be true. Just naming. You know, the word confession in Greek is a lovely word,
homologo, which basically means say the same thing as. Say the same thing as what's true.
So if you've got a demeaning, sexually, maybe not overtly perverse person in your life,
you just need to say they are sexually violating everyone. whom they're with.
Well, oh, that seems so extreme. He's just a little loose. Well,
you go, we create these deceptive structures of not naming or coming close to naming something that
is, as you put it in a keyword, dismissive. We dismiss the reality of living in a fallen world.
So if we have the courage to name what's happening past,
present. then it opens the door for us to, in some sense, be invited into a struggle that we've
been spending a great portion of our life trying to avoid. And that's what I find with regard to
most of the people I've had the privilege to work with. They've had some sense something's not well
in their sexuality with their spouse or something with regard to their inability to receive honor
and delight. Yet, the idea that it could be related to.
connected to not only their family, their family of origin, but also to the larger events that
occurred. Just that alone. We often then in the Christian community have this notion of don't look
behind you. Just look forward to the high mark of maturity in Christ, which means why does God keep
inviting us to the Exodus? Why does he have as one of the most common commands?
Don't forget the Lord your God. Remember the Lord your God. And I can hear certain people saying,
yes, remember God, but not this stuff. And it's like, well, wait a minute. You remember God in
context. You remember God in story. That's what the Exodus is.
And so to say, yes, we remember death and resurrection, but we have the story of Golgotha and
Gethsemane. When we refuse to enter our story, we operate in abstraction at 20,000,
30,000 feet, which means we're not in the dirt. And it's in that humus,
in that humility, that the deepest change of our body and heart occurs,
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I love that, that invitation. And for the listener who's thinking this might be me,
you know, maybe I haven't talked about it. But I love the invitation into the story. And God is in
the story. But the truth is also in the story. And they both go hand in hand.
Dan, what kinds of, for the listener, you know,
is aware that some of this is resonating with their own experience and maybe they've downplayed it
or maybe they're feeling that shame. What do you see in all of your experience as some of the first
steps that can help someone move away from that survival, away from that,
you know, kind of defensiveness or some of that surviving to begin to enter into the work of
healing and find the freedom? If someone, and again, given the kind of folk who would be drawn to
and desirous to have your wisdom, it's a community of people who long for healing and long for
integrity. And so what I would say is, know that it's very likely as you hear this,
something is stirring. And then the question is, What do you normally do to distract yourself once
that kind of stirring occurs? Like, are you the kind of person that's just going to get busy and
all of a sudden you find yourself moving quickly to the bathroom and cleaning it?
Or you go back to your to-do list and you work hard to get everything done. I think the first step
is take a piece of paper, preferably in something that has longevity,
like a journal or a diary, and just write the words, something's not well within me.
And if you can actually go further, to be able to say, wait a minute, my uncle walking in on me
while I'm dressing where it isn't inadvertent, because he stood there looking.
At that point, to be able to say, wait a minute, I've used language to escape it.
Now I need language, just to name it. That was sexually violating. If you can go so far as to
write, my uncle sexually abused me in that moment. It allows you to have sort of,
again, that stake in the ground. Now you're going to want to move away from it. You're going to
want to, in one sense, get busy. But now you've got something that has at least a degree of
permanence. You can look at your journal and go, I wrote that on whatever date it happens to be.
Then the next step from that point is, from my standpoint, you begin to invite the Spirit of God
into that. And I don't mean to resolve it. Just the Spirit of God to say,
I'm going to need courage. I'm going to need, in one sense, perseverance, because none of the work
of true healing occurs in any instantaneous.
So the freedom to be able to go, this is the journey. It's not going to come quickly.
But I would say once you begin that process, you need more information.
You need a foundation. Again, knowledge is never enough, but it is a lovely beginning point.
In order to get to what we'll call right hemisphere images, sensations, to get to the reality of
where we store trauma, You got to begin to a large degree in the left hemisphere.
In other words, an understanding that begins to make some sense to understand why it's hard to
trust or why you have a hard time dreaming or why you have a hard time receiving.
So as you begin to get more data, as one of the reasons we put together like an online course to
actually not just teach it, but have people and sharing something of their story.
so that people, again, it won't be similar to yours, but it will echo with regard to what's in.
So once you get what I would call a foundation of understanding, then it's so imperative that you
step into a trusted, mutual. conversation about not just what occurred but the implications and
often that's a really good therapist a really good spiritual director or just a wise friend who has
gone well before you into realms who can walk with you whatever steps need to be taken initially so
you cannot change what you do not name you cannot change what you do not feel and for us that's
going to be entering into the feelings of judgment, criticism, shame. And you need a trusted ally
to walk with you to engage them.
I love that, Dan, and just the tenderness with which you named the reality that opening that door
will mean facing the contempt and the shame, which is why many people were fearful of doing that.
What do you say to... the folks you know who are fearful of opening the door to their story maybe
they're afraid it will overwhelm them or um or even it's just sort of a subconscious fear but but
there's some sense of you know, why make it worse? You know, this is just going to make it worse.
I'm fine. I'm good enough. Or a sense of this could feel too overwhelming. Yes.
What would you say to folks who are kind of wrestling in that way internally? Kind of maybe
ambivalent on the fence, you know, maybe I can just keep it in the past or it's too scary.
I love that question because let's put it this way. If you're not ambivalent and fearful, you're
not human. Yeah. And yet the reality of being able to say,
you know, when did the prodigal come home? I'm not saying that a person who's been abused is
equivalent. But what I'm saying is he came to his senses, which is that awareness of I'm eating the
food fed to pigs. We don't often talk about, well, what was the smell?
What was the taste? In other words, the sensuality of, in many ways,
his embedded mind with literally having lost everything.
It's what brought him home, brought him to his senses. So I think in so many ways,
when you begin to go, I actually believe God is good. I actually believe the resurrection is
powerful. And I'm living in ways that... It's just not the fullness of what I think it means to
know something of the goodness of God and the land of the living. I think that's that impulse of I
want more. So when that impulse is there, I think a lot of people discount it as being self
-absorbed. Or if I enter this, it'll be more than I can bear. And all I can tell you is anyone who
thinks that you can get into this, get out of it quickly. It's a form of violence.
God will not give you more than what you can bear in that process, which means when you're aware,
I can't do any more work right now. He's not saying, yes, you can. What he's saying is,
thank you for owning what you can bear. Now, take your rest.
And that rest might be a day, a week, or longer. So there is no rush.
There is no imperative of get healed. It is the invitation to what John 10.10 speaks of,
life and life abundant. So the invitation is always to how much of God do you want?
How much of truth do you want? And not so much said in a snarling, how much of God do you want?
Much more, I can only take so much of God. And so I am so grateful in his humility.
He doesn't ask me to take all of the Godhead. I take enough to be able to live well for today.
That's so good. And there's an honesty. There's a difference in being honestly like, I can't do it.
I need to do it. I can't do it right now for whatever reason. That's an honesty that I think God
honors. There's a partnership there versus the, it's fine. I don't need to look at this sort of the
where we're still in the contempt space, the dismissive space. And I think that's really helpful
for the listener. Dan, tell us, you've done so much in this space, but even more recently, you've
created some resources for folks. Tell us a little bit about what you have created most recently
and some of these tools and resources that. You have to come alongside people who are wanting to go
deeper and ready to go deeper and sensing that invitation to go into their story. Well, I wrote The
Wounded Heart back in the 80s and then follow it up with a 25-year anniversary of sort of what I'd
learned from that point on. So there's writing, of course, but so often we need faces and we need,
in one sense, the visual encounter with real human beings who are in the middle because none of us
are finished but who have engaged something of the ambivalence that you put so well and so we
created this online course to help people begin that process and especially for spouses of those
who have been abused because a lot of times the effect of the past abuse will show up in a
marriage. And so Steve Call and I wrote a book called The Deep Rooted Marriage. So almost all my
work is about trauma and the implications for some of our core relationships.
But you still need... to engage the story and so we have over 32 years uh created something called
a recovery week for men and then separately for women and i've just got i i'm very proud to say
i've got a team that's far better than me um who have a long history of addressing in their own and
other lives the reality of abuse so in those recovery weeks we're inviting people over a six-day
period to begin the process, slowly engaging both the teaching, but also something of their story.
And group work is an amazing, it may seem like the biggest threat in the world,
but when you hear other people's stories live, you begin to get.
clarity about your own, but you also get the involvement of letting your life come to bring
goodness to others. So I think when I think about my whole life and all my work, probably my most
favorite week of the year is when we get to do the work in a recovery week.
And these recovery weeks are online? No, they are not. They're live.
It's live. It's the kind of thing where a lot of work we do, of course, has to be done to engage a
global world. But this is, you know, when you're stepping into the particular areas of a person's
story, you need to be able to. stand in line with one another and get your hot dogs and baked beans
and basically rub shoulders in a way in which you're engaging the stories.
And then, so Dan, these recovery weeks, and we're going to link to this in the show notes, the
allendercenter.org backslash workshops. These are men's and women's recovery week that are there
at the Allender Center. Well, actually, the last year we were in a lovely place in Colorado.
Don't do it across the country. But this last time, you know, I kind of go where I'm told.
And we had done enough recovery weeks in the Washington area where we live.
But we went further east. And these are for people who...
You mentioned something about spouses, but these would be for people who themselves have some kind
of history with sexual abuse. Is that right? Yes. At least they're acknowledging something
happened. I may not know much. And again, this is a whole other issue about memory. For many
people, they don't remember much. They just have this shard of a memory.
But in that, usually there is indeed a larger narrative that can be discovered.
Yeah, it's so powerful. And it's so powerful, like you're saying, to be in a room with other
people. It's we will link to this in the show notes.
But I just hear from so many people and a few people who have come to your programs have now
written their own stories about this. We've had some of those folks on the podcast and these.
they're able to now share their stories so that other people again feel less alone i can just
testify to the power of the work that you're doing in thank you and the expertise with just
tenderly holding the story um and so these are again i'll say this again it's the allendercenter
.org backslash workshops and we'll link to that in the show notes for anyone who's just listened to
this and felt a tug, that it's time, you know, that it's time. I want to look at this,
that I love how you put it, Dan, that God wants to give me more. And am I,
you know, am I open to receiving that and maybe taking a step toward that? That's just beautiful,
beautiful work that you've created for so many people. Thank you. It's an honor to be blessed like
that. Yeah. I guess I just want to thank you. Is there anything else as we close that you'd like
people to know about?
any of the other resources. I would always recommend The Wounded Heart. It's just a powerful book.
You did mention there's a course. Did you mention that or did I just misunderstand you?
Let's put it this way. I don't often go to our website. We'll go to the website.
We have a number of online courses, but there's clearly one on the topic. So there's different
steps you can take. Indeed. All right. Well, thank you. Thanks for being here.
And we're grateful for your ministry and we'll continue to just get the word out about these
tremendous resources. Thank you, Allison. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The
Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify,
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love it if you leave a five star review. Join us each weekday for the best of you every day, a
brief daily reflection to help you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as
you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God
-given self.
Have you ever walked into a room and almost automatically started adjusting yourself?
Maybe you hold back what you really think. You soften your opinions. You make yourself more agreeable. Not because you’re trying to be dishonest, but because some part of you wants to belong.
In this week’s episode, Dr. Alison is joined by behavioral scientist and Columbia University professor Dr. Patricia Hewlin to explore the tension between authenticity and belonging.
Dr. Hewlin’s research on what she calls facades of conformity shows that continually suppressing your values and perspectives in order to fit in can lead to emotional exhaustion and disconnection. But the answer isn’t to swing to the other extreme and insist on expressing every part of yourself in every room.
We were made for community.
And we were also made to become fully ourselves.
The goal isn’t to choose one over the other. It’s learning how to love other people without losing yourself in the process.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why the desire to belong is a healthy human need
- How to tell the difference between wise compromise and self-abandonment
- Why staying quiet isn’t always people-pleasing
- How your core values can guide what you share, when you speak up, and when you flex
- Why “bringing your whole self” doesn’t mean bringing every part of yourself everywhere
- How to navigate relationships or workplaces where being fully yourself may come with a real cost
- What Dr. Hewlin calls the middle self: authenticity with discernment and accountability
- Why true authenticity is inherently relational
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TRANSCRIPT
So when people create a facade, they are suppressing their personal values and pretending to go
along with the values of the organization in order to, again, survive,
to succeed, to fit in. It is connected to emotional exhaustion.
It's a bit ironic. In our efforts to fit in, the exhaustion causes us to leave.
This notion of putting on a facade, pretending and suppressing is relevant to so many contexts in
relationships. Whole does not necessarily mean everything. So we can have wholeness and choose
what's most important to us so that we can be effective in the different parts of our lives.
Hey everyone and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You.
I love today's conversation. It's right at the alley of this podcast because most of us have had
the experience of walking into a room of people and almost without realizing it,
you start to adjust yourself. I do this all the time and learning to...
This can show up in a lot of different ways. Maybe you hold back when someone asks you about work
or your kids because you don't want to draw attention to yourself. Or maybe you read the room and
realize that everybody around you has a certain set of political views or religious views or views
about the weather. and maybe you don't share those views so you just go quiet or even slide into
maybe a white lie or just sort of a compromised statement because you don't want to risk not
fitting in or being judged by the people around you. Maybe you shift yourself just enough so that
you won't stick out. You modify what you think, what you share, what you say so that you'll be
perceived as more agreeable. Maybe a little less true to your actual self but some part of you
wants to fit in you want to belong And sometimes this might be wise. Sometimes holding back your
honest opinion is being discerning in a moment. Sometimes not sharing all of the details about what
you think about your work or about your viewpoints makes sense. It's wisdom.
There's an art to being social, what we call these social skills in any kind of relationship,
in any kind of room. And we're required to be flexible, to compromise, to read the room and to
consider the needs and opinions and the impact. This isn't all bad.
But at the same time, if we're honest, healthy accommodation can so quickly and so easily become
something else. Maybe you get so good at holding yourself back,
at masking your true opinions, at reading the room, that you actually start to abandon parts of
yourself. And maybe other people know a version of you, but they don't really know what you're
really thinking, what you really care about, what really matters to you. They don't really know
those deeper layers of who you are. And the connection remains somewhat shallow or distant.
And this isn't sustainable over time. On the other hand, there's an opposite extreme that we hear a
lot about in our culture right now. And the idea is that you can never compromise, that you can
never flex, that you have to. be true to every single part of you at every single moment, that your
truth is the most important truth and that if other people can't take any component of who you are,
that's their problem. And that's also not a healthy extreme. It's not a healthy way to show up in
the world and show up in relationships. And this is why I love today's conversation with my guest,
Dr. Patricia Hewlin. Dr. Hewlin has spent more than two decades studying this very tension.
She's an award-winning behavioral scientist and professor at Columbia University, and she's the
author of a brand new book called Staying True. Her research begins with what she calls facades of
conformity. These are the ways we suppress our values and perspectives in order to fit in,
succeed, or maintain a sense of belonging. And her research has found that living behind those
facades for a prolonged amount of time comes at a real cost, including emotional exhaustion,
disengagement, and eventually the desire to leave the very environments we were trying so hard to
stay connected to. love about dr hewlin's work is that she doesn't swing to the other extreme she
isn't telling us to stop caring what anyone thinks or to always bring every single part of
ourselves into every room which isn't always wise according to what you'll hear her talk about
today instead she asks a much more interesting question How do I develop healthy,
wise connections with other people without abandoning myself? Because as you will hear her say in
today's conversation, we were made for two equally important things. One is community with other
people, and one is that we were made to also become fully ourselves. And so the challenge is
learning to hold both of those essential ingredients to what it means to be human, intention.
Dr. Hewlin's new book is all about what she calls the middle self. And we talk about this in
today's conversation, how authenticity goes hand in hand with discernment and accountability and an
awareness that who we are always exists in relationship to other people. I found this conversation
fascinating. It helped me really crack open some things that I struggle with in my own life.
We talk about how to know when compromise is loving versus when it's actually self-abandonment. We
talk about what to do when being your self could genuinely threaten your job or belonging in a
certain group or an important relationship. We talk about why staying quiet is not always people
pleasing and why you don't necessarily owe every part of yourself or every opinion you hold or
every value you have to every person or every space. I found Dr.
Hewlin's new book, Staying True to You, just such a refreshing and insightful take on an age-old
conversation. I think her work gives us a remarkably wise and grounded in research framework for
something so many of us are trying to figure out, which is how do I love other people without
losing myself? Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Patricia Hewlin.
Dr. Hewlin, I am so honored to have you on the podcast today. Your research is just rocking my
world. These are topics we've talked about on the podcast, but you are so in the real,
real. Thank you so much for being here. It is my pleasure and honor.
Thank you, Allison.
Just when we walk in a room and we start adjusting and we start sort of tweaking who we are,
this idea of authenticity being who you are. You've been studying this for a couple of decades. And
I just kind of want to start right off with the question that I've been wrestling with as I've been
reading about this idea of a facade of conformity that you talk about.
What is that, first of all? What do you mean by that? And what led you to start studying it?
Sure. So I'll start with the second question, because the concept of facades of conformity began
when I was in banking. So before I went into academia, I worked in the corporate arena.
I was the vice president in the banking field. And I discovered,
along with my own experiences, that people were struggling being true to themselves, being true to
their perspectives, and often felt pressured to suppress aspects about themselves in order to
survive and succeed in the workplace. People have questions about, well, will I be treated
differently if I share parts of myself? Will I get promoted if I share a divergent perspective?
And so I decided to go back to get my PhD in organizational behavior and start studying behavioral
science. And that's where I developed this concept of facades of conformity.
And so when people create a facade, they are suppressing their personal values.
and pretending to go along with the values of the organization in order to again survive,
to succeed, to fit in. And when people do that, I have found over 20 years of research that it is
connected to emotional exhaustion. and there are lower levels of work engagement,
and people are less committed to the work. And so it's a bit ironic because when we suppress our
authenticity, it's so emotionally exhausting that we are more likely to try to find different
contexts or lead the organization, for example. And so in our efforts to fit in,
the exhaustion causes us to leave. or at least intend to leave so we do it because as some part of
us thinks it's how we are going to survive and get ahead but paradoxically we're actually
exhausting ourselves exactly and that is the case not only in the workplace so my research began
looking at work environments but in the past five years or so i've been having conversations with
people about relationships personal relationships, spousal relationships,
friendships, even parental relationships in terms of how do we bring our authentic selves in the
context of raising teenagers? How much do we share about our past?
As an example, when do we let go and allow them to learn on their own?
So all of those are values-based. questions. And so this notion of putting on a facade,
pretending and suppressing is relevant to so many contexts and relationships.
It's such, I love that you named that. Why do we, what is the pull?
Because I think on some level, all of us relate to it, especially when you broaden that scope. What
is at the root of putting on a facade? What have you found is the biggest reason?
why we're doing it. Do we feel insecure? Do we feel threatened? Are we just not sure? Do we not
have the skills? What is at the root of it? There are a combination of factors, but at the root is
that we all want to belong. And this is a basic human need.
And somehow we've been trained to believe that wanting to belong and fit in is a bad thing.
However, we were designed for community. And we were also designed for self-actualization,
meaning that we do want to be authentic, but we often don't have the tools to manage the two.
And so the default is, well, I'll just suppress myself and conform because I don't know how to.
do authenticity. And that's what has led me to write more about managing conformity and
authenticity in ways that we protect our well-being. That is so interesting what you just said.
We were designed for community and we were designed for self-actualization.
And as we were talking a little bit before, you we started the interview this is you know primarily
a Christian audience where we we do understand this idea of we were designed for community but we
don't always understand that sometimes almost feeling like it's a competing reality that we were
designed to become our fullest self and those two things it's so interesting just as you said that
I thought they they operate sometimes in tension in a way it seems like 100 percent and we have not
been We haven't been trained. I mean, there haven't been enough conversations about how to manage
the tension. And so in general, when humans, when we experience tension,
we want to rid ourselves from it. And so ridding ourselves from it often means to hide and so to
conform in ways that's not really healthy.
And so I see that's a great way to understand it, that because we're uncomfortable with the
tension, our default is to hide ourselves, accommodate, over conform.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Is that primarily among women or is that across the board?
Well, there has been research that shows that women tend to be more accommodating.
And so with that, the accommodating mindset comes with behaviors to protect harmony and to defer to
others. And so that's something that women should definitely be mindful of.
A lot of it is socialized where we've been trained to do that. And unfortunately,
many, many women have gone to the extreme with it in that they're unable to protect their own sense
of self and their own sense of well-being. And so there is a way that we can be mindful of the
context. And that's really great to have discernment in a way that we know the pulse of the
environment when we walk in. But at the same time, being mindful of what am I bringing in?
How can I contribute? And that's where the authenticity and self-actualization comes into play.
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That's really good. That's really good. And, you know, I could imagine not to oversimplify,
but even I would imagine there are different types of facades. So even like if a man is socialized
to posture or be grandiose, that's still a facade. It just looks different.
percent there's research i think of dr erin reed and she has talks about men and masculinity and
how they have this pressure to be a man,
you know, in the stereotypical way so that if they show too much of their interests,
for example, in family matters when they're trying to move up in professional ranks,
that could be viewed negatively depending upon that context. So I would love,
Dr. Hewlin, I can already imagine a listener. Every relationship requires some amount of
accommodation to some degree, right? Compromise, right? So how do I distinguish between when I'm
compromising in a healthy way, setting something down because I love this person,
even maybe doing that sacrificially versus when I am abandoning myself,
when I am being inauthentic? I know this is a huge question, but I'm curious how you have
understood that as you've studied this. Sure, sure. It all comes down to values and well-being.
And so I'll start with the well-being component. We can all feel that tug and that tension when we
are not... being true to our perspectives, being true to ourselves.
We need to pay attention to that and ask ourselves, well, what am I experiencing here?
Why am I experiencing this? Is it because I'm afraid or is it because I'm feeling imposed upon such
that I can't be myself? Really being introspective. And that's one thing that I highlight in my
work, that introspection is critical. When I speak about values,
we need to be more intentional about our values. Oftentimes, we will think about values in the
context of... identity. So we have our religion, our culture,
our gender, and so on. However, we have other values that could be related to our work.
Some of us are more self-directed than others, meaning that we really like being autonomous and
working on our own. And so when we don't get that autonomy, we're being imposed upon in that value.
And that could be causing a rub in terms of how we can express ourselves. Some of us are very
achievement focused to the point where it must be excellent. And if you're in an environment where
others are like, well, good enough is good enough, that's going to be a rub as well in terms of
being authentic. And so really broadening what we think about in terms of what's important,
those values that are most important to us, making sure we're bringing them in. And if we feel that
we can't, then we need to step back and evaluate, is this context really for me? Do I need to
change? Do I need to change context? What's happening here? So that that makes I love how you're
naming those things because there's a part of me that's like, oh, I always you do. I do become self
shaming if if I'm different than, you know, others. Right. So I tend to be a very efficient,
fast worker. So I don't I never liked group projects. I never liked working with other people.
And it would sometimes. You know, maybe I was thinking in graduate school, I have friends, you
know, who'd maybe get their feelings hurt, you know, and I was just right. And so it's like, well,
I don't want to be. But you can kind of when when it feels different than the context, you can sort
of feel like what's wrong. Am I being selfish? Am I is there something wrong with me? As opposed to
I kind of hear you saying that self-awareness. This is legitimate, even if it's different.
That's right. It's a different value system. Being self-directed is important to you.
In other words, you thrive when you can be autonomous. There are others who thrive in groups.
Yes. I can relate to you with that. I like my autonomy. Yeah. However,
I do encourage us all to say, well. Maybe in this context,
I can't be fully autonomous in order for the group to move forward.
So I'll pick up maybe another value that is important to me and maybe going back to achievement.
So maybe the excellence. And so I'll push forward that value around excellence and say,
all right, that's my priority. I'll flex a little bit. when it comes to autonomy,
because I can't do it in this context. I love that. So if we think about it as values,
I like what you're saying, because we're not just one value. So maybe in that moment, I'm aware
this is a value, there's nothing wrong with it. And I also have the value of wanting to be
collaborative. I have the value of wanting to the good of the group. And so I can kind of toggle,
but that's very different. And I like how you use the word in, you know, being introspective,
because that is a different motivation, then I'm afraid of not being liked.
So I'll pretend to be something I am not. That's right. And that's where we need to move from that
and be intentional. to just take the time to say,
these are the core values that really drive the way I think,
what makes me excited about the things that I do and life and so on.
And I offer that in my... in my book that's that is out now called um staying true to you and
within that book i literally give opportunities for readers to dig in and to identify values that
are that are core to them and then it's a matter of looking at the values almost like a menu I also
call it almost like a deck of cards. It's like, what's going to be the most important suit in a
given context? What am I picking from this menu that will work best in this women's group versus
working best when I'm with my family, who I see once a year during the holidays?
I love the metaphor, the deck of cards. And again, to everything you're trying to do in the book,
which is just so helpful. I think it's so empowering. I'm playing this card here.
It's my card though. I'm playing it. It's not, and I'm playing it because I care about,
I also value this context. 100%. Yeah. 100%.
I have a story about a mom and her teenage daughter, and they were just going at it.
It just seems like they could never agree upon anything. You know, that age where it's just really,
really tough sometimes. And one thing they did have in common was they were very community focused.
They were very much into social justice and giving back to the community. And so the mom said,
look, I can rally behind this to build a better relationship with my daughter.
We're going to start volunteering together. And that opened a communication line because now they
had a shared value that was exciting. And it created an openness so that the mom could pour into
her other values that would be important for her daughter as she grows up.
I love that. Identifying the shared value then kind of helped the other ones not seem so magnified.
Yeah, yeah. And I think about, I was thinking about 1 Corinthians 9.
22, where the Apostle Paul is talking about being a certain way for certain people.
And in other words, I'm actually going to pick it up because I found it to be really relevant to
what we were talking about. And I'm looking at the New Living Translation.
I'm just taking out a sentence in verse 22, 1 Corinthians 9. And he says,
yes, I try to find common ground with everyone.
And so that principle is a principle that I bring into the book.
So the book is for general readers. But my message around authenticity and conformity is really
about how can we find common ground, particularly now where we are so polarized in so many ways,
we're losing relationships. Where can we find that common ground where we can honor our sense of
integrity and still have peace of mind? It's incredible. And I hadn't thought about that verse in
this context, but you're right. And he's definitely not encouraging us to be people pleasers. It
comes from, and that's why I love your work. It comes from that authentic self. From that authentic
self, how can I find common ground? Absolutely. Absolutely.
And in that scripture, I believe he also says something about, I have the freedom to do this.
And so when we, are concrete about what's important to us and we are thriving in that value or that
set of values that frees us up to empower others and so now the compromise is empowering versus
disempowering because we can't give what we don't have So if we're feeling disempowered and we're
suppressing in ways that is emotionally exhausting, how can we empower the people we love,
the people that we meet from day to day? That's good. So we're kind of touching on this. I really
appreciate that you say, you know, the answer isn't to be sort of the tropes in the culture,
you know, to just do you or just be completely authentic all the time, whatever that actually
means. And how, you know, there's a whole idea of bringing your whole self can actually become a
sort of trap. How have you seen that play out?
You know, sort of we know that that the facade, you know, your research has really lays out how
that's an exhaustion trap. Then you also talk about this idea that,
you know, always bringing your whole self, the answer is to be completely, you know, authentic,
whatever that means all the time is also a form of a trap. It can be. And so when we're conforming
too much, we're emotionally exhausted. When we're bringing our authenticity in a way that takes up
space or too much space or it's toxic. You know,
people say, you know how I am. Everybody knows I'm raw about things. Well,
we can exhaust others with our authenticity. And so that's where the discernment comes in to say,
hmm, how am I coming off here? Why is everyone leaving the room? Why am I the only one that seems
to be talking? So we really have to be mindful of those two extremes.
And I often say we don't want to weaponize our authenticity as well,
where we're saying that, well, I just felt that I had to speak the truth and I had to tell them
this way. Sometimes the truth hurts. That's not helpful.
It's not helpful. And so that's why we have to learn that middle.
How do we thrive in the middle where we can be authentic,
but at the same time being mindful of the context and those who are around us?
So this is this is this term you have, this middle self. Yes.
What do you mean by that? And how might that play out practically? absolutely absolutely so the
middle self is a framework that i developed to describe just what we've been talking about that
we're not conforming to the point where we are emotionally exhausted but we're not authentic to the
point where we're exhausting others we understand we understand that authenticity is relational And
that when we are authentic, we are authentic with other people. And however,
most of us, and particularly in the northern side of the world, we have viewed authenticity as
highly individualistic. Me, myself, and I, those are the only parts that are relevant.
However, authenticity is relational. So once we have that mindset,
then we see the importance of selecting those perspectives and values that will be beneficial to
the context, not just for ourselves, but to empower others to be authentic as well.
That's really what I mean by being in that middle self. That is such a word.
Dr. Hewlin, authenticity is inherently relational. Yeah, what I say and do will have an impact on
you and what you say and do will have an impact on me. We're in this together. And somehow we've
been trained to believe that authenticity is this solo project and it's not.
And so that's foundational to my research now to spread the word about this relational component of
authenticity. We don't compromise to sacrifice ourselves.
We compromise to facilitate community. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's two again, you started off. We are designed for community and we are designed for
self-actualization. And the middle self is sort of how we honor both.
I know who I am, but I value this. So I, I compromise,
which is different than I pretend or. abandon myself exactly it's it's really it's authenticity
with accountability so yeah responsibility to say that i understand that i'm not doing this on my
own and that we have to to live together and so that's that and oh i also wanted to mention this
notion of wholeness whole does not necessarily mean everything Whole can be complete.
So I bring my complete self to work or to whatever that context might be versus I bring my every
part of myself. So we can have wholeness and choose what's most important to us so that we can be
effective in the different parts of our lives.
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So let's say I'm at Thanksgiving dinner with a family member.
And I want to bring my whole self, but I like how you're saying not, it doesn't have to be,
whole self can mean a lot of different things. So I'm at dinner and, you know, one of my relatives
is starting down a, whether religious or political or some sort of.
That internally I'm like, oh, I don't like this. I don't agree with this.
This is hurting, you know, maybe it's not hurting me. Maybe that's a different category, but it's
what's a healthier middle self example there. That's not abandoning myself,
but also maybe not flipping the table of Thanksgiving dinner upside down.
and causing a ruckus that doesn't need to happen. What is a healthy example there?
Well, I love that. I think we can work with this example you just raised, Dr. Cook, regarding
getting together with family, because that's where these issues often come up.
And especially now, it could be political or anything we can imagine that could create some
tension.
Most of us know that these tensions exist. So instead of us jumping into the fire,
let's prepare ourselves and ask, what is most important to me?
Is it important for me to engage in this dialogue?
Because this dialogue is tapping into a very important value.
And if that is important to me, I understand the risk and I'm willing to take them.
Now, we may have another value that is centered around community. And so is my value around
community and family the most important thing to me when I enter that space?
And if that's the case. then maybe you decide I'm not going to engage in that dialogue because I
want to enjoy my family. Now, I'm not saying that it's going to be comfortable, but you will have
peace of mind because you know why you're doing what you're doing. I love that.
You go back to the values. What are my values? And therefore then, oh, that's so good because then
that's the self, actually, that's the self-authenticity piece.
I am doing that. I'm staying quiet because this is a value, right?
Not because I'm afraid or I'm, or I'm speaking up because this is a value,
not because, you know, I'm trying to throw my authenticity in everybody's face and don't care what
any, it's no, this is, this is important. And that's so good because when it's coming from that
values led place, it's, it's going to come out differently because it's going to come from that
true place inside of you.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And with that, that comes the discernment and to say,
well, what type of relationships do them? How are my relationships with them?
Will they respect the authenticity that I bring into the room?
Because if they don't, is it worth it? Is the cost worth it here? Exactly.
Because why do we, you know, I think about casting our pearls before a swine.
Right? So why cast what's important to us with those who are not going to value it?
And again, there's the tension. There's the tension. So we have to. be vigilant in terms of being
introspective so that we know why we're doing what we're doing. It's all about intentionality.
I know a lot of your research has started in the workplace where I think,
and it's true in families and workplaces, it's churches, this is true anywhere, but I hear a lot
from people like, what if a value really does threaten?
my job, threaten my belonging, threaten, you know, sometimes it's very real,
this, this might threaten my ability to belong in this setting. How do you walk people through that
kind of very real, you know, it's not just in my mind, it's not just they might not like me, it's I
may become a target here. Yeah, yeah. I may be kicked out of this,
lose my job, I may be kicked out of this community. Sure, sure. And I think about, you know the the
audience that that we have here of women and over the years sharing how much family has meant to
them could place question marks in terms of their professionalism i've seen situations where a
woman may have had challenges getting care daycare then they have to bring their child in it's
viewed so harshly, but if a man does it, he's seen as, oh, wow, he so cares.
Oh, look.
Right. Exactly. So now things have improved a bit.
There have been some recent studies that show that being a parent can be viewed positively,
but we still have to be careful about those stereotypes regarding women and whether or not family,
quote unquote, is going to be more important. than work and perhaps lose out on opportunities.
And that really requires an introspective conversation to say,
well, what's most important to me at this place? Do I want to withhold talking so much about my
family or do I really want to? And do I want to incorporate my family or my personal life in the
work that I do? And so. it's important to understand that we're not going to be able to change the
context. Some contexts are very toxic and we may not find ourselves being able to discuss family
matters and so on. And so then the question is, well, what can I do differently? And I always say
that the best time to find a job is when you don't need a job. And also to explore relationships
that you currently have, build a network. I talk about building a circle of champions,
people who are mentors, who can guide you into different options if the current context is not
toxic, is toxic. The other thing to think about is that, hey,
we need our jobs. And so security in terms of finances,
that's of value. Yes, absolutely. And so it could be that in this season,
we lean into the fact that I need this job. I need to figure out how I'm going to navigate this
environment until I can find a better one for me. I'm so glad you mentioned that because that's a
conversation I've had with so many people kind of offline where they'll say, I felt so much shame
that I stayed in this situation, but I needed the money. Or I had another one I'll hear is I had a
lot invested in, you know, sort of like, let's say toxic church communities. I had a lot invested.
in the people i couldn't just walk away and there's a lot of self-shame of you know if i should
have just you know left i should have just you know flipped and it was there's it's complicated and
i i love how you're saying there there is a value there underneath in in whether it's financial
security or it's that that is valid that is valid that is authentic exactly exactly and we can have
competing values where we say wow My care for my family or my care for this political identity,
that could even be a problem. There are some organizations that have a clear identity around
politics, although that's not what should be done. But you can find,
I've interviewed people, hundreds of people, and they would say, well, when I don't share that
value system, I feel pressured to put on a facade. And so there are a number of factors that can
play a role where we feel that we can't be true to our values. However,
it is a job and we need that security. And so my recommendation is don't look at the job as your
end all to satisfy your values. We assume that the workplace is supposed to be the place where
we're supposed to be able to bring it all in. And that's a very tall order of expectations.
And it takes, you know, organizations are rigid. It takes a very, very,
it takes a long time or a dramatic transformational effort for cultures to change.
And so what are we going to do? Are we going to say, well, this is this environment, I'm unhappy
and so on. Understand the environment. Understand what values are driving you to stay.
Get your exit strategy if that's what you need to do. And make sure that you have other outlets
where you can truly be. authentic to your values. That's such a good point. It's sort of a right
sizing of expectations. Yeah. And I think even you brought up that example, it's certainly true of
work. You brought up that example of parenting teenagers and like how there are certain things
about ourselves we may not fully disclose, you know, at certain points, which we need to have
places where we can, because we're honoring what I can expect of this relationship.
That's right. I wonder one other question on that. When you talked about that facade because of
fear, I wonder with the advent of social media, I think there's a lot of suppressing out of like,
I don't want to get labeled in a certain way. Because sometimes when I look online, I'm like, I
just, I bet there's so many more richer conversations going on behind the scenes. So many
conversations that are so much more nuanced that folks are almost afraid to have publicly because
of the public, you know, kind of polarizations and camps and blaming.
Right. And, and, and, and, and I have so much richer conversations with my friends offline. About
some of these topics that I'd ever be comfortable having online because of that. Does that make
sense? And I can feel like you're being a facade, but it's like, it's just, I don't, I can't have
some of these conversations publicly right now because of the cost. I don't have the. mental health
bandwidth to field a bunch of angry people on social media. I have to have those conversations
privately. I'm kind of thinking out loud. Sure, and that's where you can really build a sense of
intimacy with your friends, family. And I'm not talking about people who necessarily share the
perspectives you share. I would say that we can grow more when we learn from others who have
different perspectives and values. And that type of dialogue is very difficult to do via social
media. and i i don't recommend it and frankly there are more conversations about what i've been
calling a facade of authenticity meaning that on social media people are trying to convey this
authentic persona but it's fake
Because there's this image that we have to uphold. We have to be very mindful of that.
And now that you've mentioned that, I'm going back to children and parenting. There are studies
that have shown that the more time young people are spending on social media,
the less authentic they say that they feel about themselves.
And so social media, screen time, that will have an impact on their own sense of self.
Yeah. We have to really be careful with that. Social media is a wonderful tool,
but it's not the end of all when it comes to developing ourselves and sharing perspectives.
Yeah. There's such a pull to conform. There's such a cost to not conforming.
Yeah. And I love what you're saying. There's, I think we're hungry right now for, oh man,
that, that relational component of authenticity. I think we're so hungry for authentic dialogue
between people who differ. Right. Right. It doesn't, it, it, that's actually where the,
the, that's what we're missing in a way. Yes. Yeah.
Where there's two authentic people coming together, having an authentic disagreement in a way that
is. honoring of, and, and I, that it seems so hard to find that publicly, but,
but then I do think so many of us are having finding that privately, which gives me hope.
Um, but all the more to the point of, I, I'm so grateful for your work. Cause I think there is such
a hunger for that true, what we really mean by that relational authenticity.
So powerful. Thank you. Thank you. I was driven to write the book because I have talked to so many
people. And in my research, I've just found that so many people are burned out because they are
unclear on how to be authentic and how to do it well. And so I'm expecting that a lot of people
will benefit from this conversation. There are a dearth of resources on it,
and yours is one of the best. What is one thing as we close, as you wrote the book, that surprised
you, that just kind of made you go, oh, you know,
step back a little bit, even though you've been researching this for a long time? Yes, yes. And so
as a behavioral scientist who has been digging into the science of it all,
I wanted to talk about research findings and to connect them to our day-to-day lives,
which I've done. But I was surprised by how much I talk about myself in the book as well.
I try to be agnostic a bit and not bringing myself in.
In my research community, we call it me-search. We don't want it to be me-search.
But I had some stories that were relevant. And I was surprised by even I had a traumatic incident
when I was a child that was really very relevant to the book. I would not have ever anticipated
writing about that. And so I'm really grateful that I was able to bring some of myself into the
book, some of my family history. And so I'm grateful for that opportunity.
Yeah. And it shows because it brings that. And I know what you're saying as a researcher,
you kind of feel like you're supposed to keep yourself out of it. But actually, it actually made
the book more. kind of feel more authentic for lack of a better word right because it's it's real
it's your real hard-earned wisdom in your own life experience thank you thank you yeah and we have
yeah Thank you. We have so much more in common than not. And this, the notion of authenticity and
conformity, it's really, it's a human condition. It shows up in different ways based upon our own
context and in our cultures and so on. However,
when it comes down to it, as we mentioned earlier, we all want to belong. We all want community and
we all want to self-actualize. And so how do we do it in a way that we can, can live together a
little bit more it's just beautiful tell my listeners where they can find the book and more of your
work sure sure so it's called staying true to you and so this is actually the soft cover,
the hard cover is out and you can find it on Amazon or other places,
Barnes and Nobles, really anywhere where you like to buy books. You can find me on my website,
patriciahuland.com. I'm also on LinkedIn as well as Instagram.
Trying out TikTok, interesting space. You can find me there,
but.
Testing out my authenticity and all of those areas. That would be a great research project to do a
deep dive on how authenticity shows up on TikTok. Yes. Thank you so much,
Dr. Cook. This has been such a pleasure. Thanks for having me. You're a gem and it's a fantastic
book. We'll link to all of this. in the show notes. I can't recommend it enough,
as I keep saying, but I just think it's so rare to find work that honors that both and.
We want to belong and we want to self-actualize and both are genuine and both are real, both are
God-made and we don't need to be ashamed of either one and you're helping us.
You know, find that middle self, that way that honors the both and. And I think,
you know, I'm just thinking as we're talking, this really is, you know, Jesus says, love others as
yourself. Right. That's that. There's the both and right there. That's what we're trying to
accomplish. Exactly. We got to love ourselves first in order to effectively love others.
Yeah. Thank you for your work. Yeah. Yep. And we do that with the work. Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you. Amen. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You.
It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
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you leave a five-star review. Join us each weekday for the best of you every day, a brief daily
reflection to help you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become
the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.
You love your kids. You’re grateful for your family.
And sometimes you still feel resentful.
You may feel frustrated by how much is asked of you, lonely in the load you’re carrying, jealous of the moms who seem to have it easier, or ashamed that motherhood doesn’t always feel the way you thought it would.
In this week’s episode, Dr. Alison is joined by longtime friends and authors Kathy Tuan-MacLean and Tara Edelschick for an honest conversation about the complicated emotions moms are often afraid to admit out loud. Drawing from their research with more than 700 women, they explore why shame and resentment thrive in isolation—and what can happen when we finally bring those feelings into the light.
You’ll learn:
- Why motherhood can become fertile ground for comparison and shame
- What resentment is really telling you
- How to discern between something that is simply hard and something that genuinely needs to change
- Why resentment doesn’t always mean someone has done something wrong
- How shame and resentment can isolate you from yourself, others, and God
- What Martha’s story teaches us about bringing resentment honestly to Jesus
- How acceptance, surrender, and safe community can help loosen resentment’s grip
- A simple breath prayer for the moments you feel unseen or overwhelmed
More Resources:
Connect with Kathy and Tara here.
Read Moms on the Way: Following Jesus Through the Challenges of Motherhood here.
With every purchase of Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul, you’ll get exclusive access to her Soul Tending Video Library, including “Boundaries for the Deeply Feeling Woman” and her masterclass “Healing the Wounds That Still Shape You.”
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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TRANSCRIPT
Anything that we care about deeply as women, Satan uses it and goes, here you go,
you suck. With moms, we are extra vulnerable. It's where the enemy wants to attack because it's
where we care the most and where we feel the most responsible. And so, of course, a message that
you're failing, you're terrible, you're not measuring up, you could do more. Everything can feel so
heavy and the pressure to say it's awesome. So much of it's not awesome.
We don't tell the truth of that enough because then not only does Satan say you suck, he says
you're the only one who sucks like this. You know this from shame, right? That shame isolates. And
so the first step in breaking that shame, she goes to Jesus and she says, don't you care?
Jesus invites us to have an honest conversation with him.
Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You. We are
officially heading into fall, and I don't know what this season feels like in your house,
but for so many moms and women that I talk to, September can conjure up a lot of different...
School is back. And for many of you, activities are ramping up. The calendar starts filling.
There are forms to sign and lunches to pack. There are appointments to remember. Or for some of
you, now your kids are being launched off to college or off on their own adventures as young
adults. And it brings up a whole different set of emotions as you face the fall.
underneath a lot of this activity, there can be another layer that we don't talk about quite as
much. You love your kids. You love your family. You are profoundly grateful for them.
And the truth is, sometimes you may still resent how much is asked of you.
Sometimes your feelings are complicated. Maybe you're frustrated by the fact that your child is
struggling when everybody else's child seems to be doing fine and you don't know what to do with
those feelings. Maybe you're sad or lonely that your adult children aren't reaching out to you as
often as you wished they would. Maybe you feel resentful of a spouse because somehow you're both
living in the same house, but you feel like you're carrying more of the load. Maybe you secretly
compare yourself with the other moms who seem to have figured out some secret formula that
apparently nobody maybe seemed to have given to you. And then almost imperceptibly,
the minute one of those more complicated emotions surfaces, another voice kicks in.
What kind of mom feels this way? I shouldn't feel resentful.
I shouldn't feel frustrated. I should be more grateful. I love my family.
way. And now we've moved into shame. And this is what I loved about my conversation today with my
friends, Kathy Twan McLean and Tara Edelcheck. They have spent years listening carefully to moms.
In fact, the work behind their books grew out of a survey of more than 700 women. And one of the
most striking things they heard was essentially, no one asks us about these feelings,
these feelings I don't feel like I should be having. Women consistently told them that they feel
unseen in their experiences raising children and that they felt shame talking about certain
emotions and that no one had ever given them a safe space to talk about how complicated motherhood
can be at times. And I love that Kathy and Tara are naming this and bringing this conversation to
us because the thing about difficult emotions is that they tend to grow more powerful when they're
kept secret. When we don't know what to do. With these complicated feelings, we tend to turn them
against ourselves and it becomes shame. And shame is isolating. It keeps us from healthy
connections with other people. Or these feelings can also turn into resentment.
We begin to quietly resent the very people that we love,
leading us even further into isolation. And the truth is,
sometimes life is just simply not what we wish it would have been. And so very often we're tired
and we're vulnerable to some of these painful emotions. One of my favorite moments in today's
conversation is when Tara describes resentment as this complicated tangle of thoughts and emotions
rooted in the feeling that something is not as it should be, and I don't like how it is.
And sometimes what's not as it should be isn't anybody's fault. It's just hard.
And sometimes the thing that is not as it should be is genuinely not fair. Maybe I'm genuinely
being hurt. Someone genuinely needs to change. And the reality is trying to discern the difference,
right, between something that just is hard and nobody's fault and just life being the way life is
in this moment. needs to change requires discernment.
Learning to tell the difference can be hard. And what I appreciate about Kathy and Tara is that
they don't give us a simplistic answer. Instead, they help us ask a more compassionate and
spiritually alive question. What do I do with these feelings now that they're here?
How do I bring these feelings into the light? How do I listen for what might genuinely need to
change? And how do I grieve in community with safe people what cannot be changed?
And above all, how do I turn toward the one who always sees me, no matter what I'm feeling?
And that's where we're headed. Today, my guests, Kathy Tawan-McLean and Tara Edelczyk,
have been close friends and writing partners for years. Kathy serves as the National Director of
Faculty Ministry for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. She has spent more than three decades
working with students and faculty in Bible study, spiritual formation, and leadership development.
She's also a spiritual director and the mother of three adult children. Tara is a teacher and
writer who has spent three decades teaching everywhere from public high schools to Harvard's
Graduate School of Education to homeschool communities and incarcerated men. She is also a mother
of three and now a grandmother. Together, they are the authors of Moms at the Well and their brand
new seven-week Bible study experience. It's called Moms on the Way, Following Jesus Through the
Challenges of Motherhood. Their new study explores some of the experiences moms often have the
hardest time admitting out loud, including loneliness, shame. resentment,
scarcity, vulnerability, and even bitterness. I love Kathy and Tara, not just because they're dear
friends, and I've actually lived some life with them and seen how they are as moms, as friends,
as community members, but also just because they are so real. They're real,
they're honest, they've researched things, so they have a lot of wisdom, but everything they say
comes out of the reality of their own lives. You can find them along with tons of resources they've
created, prayers, practices. and information over at their website. It's called Welcome, Jesus,
Welcome. This conversation is warm. It's honest. It's funny. It's freeing.
And it really met me and touched me in a place where I needed to be reminded that Jesus always sees
me no matter what I'm feeling. So whether you're in the... of raising little kids,
whether you're parenting teenagers, launching young adults, or maybe an empty nest, or just
carrying complicated feelings about loving people deeply in a life that does not always go the way
we hoped. I know there's something for you in today's conversation. Please enjoy my conversation
with Kathy Tuan McLean and Tara Edelczyk.
So we're here at the beginning of fall. And it feels like the beginning of fall often marks this
new season for moms, whether kids are starting a new year at school, whether like you guys.
There are no kids left anymore to send off because they're already launched.
It always feels like there's a lot. What are you guys hearing underneath the surface from moms as
you're talking to them? What are you feeling as moms this September?
I now have grandkids. So my oldest grandkid is starting kindergarten. And my daughter,
who has three, five and under. is completely overwhelmed.
She works full time. Her husband works full time at night because he manages a restaurant.
And she just feels like, I don't have a minute. I can't get it all done.
How am I going to get these kids to three different places all before I get to work with teeth
brushed and lunches packed and forms signed? And it's just,
I mean, I, And sometimes I try not to listen to her a little bit because I'm like, oh,
I remember that. It's overwhelming. Yeah, it's kind of like, how did I survive that? You do survive
it. How did I survive that? But you do. You absolutely do. I know. You absolutely do. But in the
moment, it's like, what? We have to do this for how many more years? Yeah, being a working mom
especially. My kids, even though they're all grown, they love to razz me.
In fact, they just were during our... family vacation, on how they had to walk themselves to
school. And I did not walk them to school. Literally, their elementary school was one block from
our house. And there was a crossing guard at the street that you had to walk,
you know, across. So I was like, you were always 100% safe.
But it was just so not done in our community.
Right. That you would allow your kids to walk that. It was actually two blocks because they had to
walk the block up to the corner, take a left and then walk across the street. So but they were
like, but we were so different and we were so out of it. And I just basically needed to get them
out the door so I could get out the door and face Boston traffic. It was reality. Yeah. It's just a
real estate. Isn't that wild? So I was just thinking, because now that we're back in the town in
which I grew up, I walked by myself to kindergarten. My sister walked with me to kindergarten
almost a mile. I'm not kidding. Almost a mile. I was like, this was a long walk to do as a little
six-year-old kid by yourself. And sometimes people would come along and offer you a ride home.
And if it was snowy, I'd take it. It was just a different time back in the 80s than to your point
now. And I'm not saying that's bad or good. It's just that the pressures on parents are different.
They've always been real, but just different generational pressures.
And I love that. It made your kids feel different, even though meaningfully there was no real cost
to them. It just made them feel different with their peers. Yeah. I want you to speak for a second
to the mom who is listening kind of. Listening to us describe this thinking, everybody else is
handling this better than I am, right? Because I'm hearing you, Kathy, like your kids are razzing
you. I don't know how you felt about it back then. You know, Tara, you're saying, how did I
survive? Like, there can be shame in that. There can be like, I'm the worst mom in the world in
that. Why does motherhood kind of so easily become this breeding ground for comparison and shame
and everyone else's handle? it better than I am. Everyone else is making better decisions than I
am. Well, it seems like one, we're women. And there's something about women that it seems like the
comparison piece is huge, right? No matter what. In our first book,
we actually have a whole chapter on that. And I think when it comes to our kids,
who are the dearest, you know, what we care about and love more than anything.
And our investment and time in them is a huge, huge part of our lives.
The sense of wanting to do it well and then looking around and comparing yourself,
I think, is human. But I do think that part of the thing that has been my huge aha,
even as we've been writing this book, was around shame and around how there's actually a spiritual
battle happening.
Because I think my big giant aha as a Chinese American is I spent most of my adulthood wondering
what does healthy shame look like? Because we would often talk about toxic versus healthy shame.
And I'm like, I know toxic shame. I grew up in a very driven Chinese American family,
so I know toxic shame. And I know that because my culture growing up was like that too.
But what does healthy shame look like? And actually, the big aha for me reading Kurt Thompson's
book, The Soul of Shame, was there is no healthy shame. It's actually the enemy's favorite weapon.
And so I think that with moms, we are extra vulnerable. It's where the enemy wants to attack
because it's where we care the most and where we feel the most responsible.
And so, of course, a message that you're failing. You're terrible. You're not measuring up.
You could do more. You could do less. Yes.
A pastor once, a female pastor who said, the enemy hates women.
Satan hates women. Of course, Satan hates everyone. But she helped us tune into the particularity
of the ways Satan hates women. the particular ways that we are women, what we care about deeply and
most. And so for most of us who have children, that is children. And so he's going to come hard at
that. But it can be anything that we care about as women, nurturing healthy work environments,
taking care of our families and taking care of our parents in good ways, being a good sibling,
being a good wife, anything that we care about deeply as women. Satan uses it and goes,
here you go. You suck. You suck. And then you add and we hear it,
right? Just loud, loud, loud, loud, loud. And it is so heavy. And then when you add,
because you talked about comparison, there's a million TikToks that say how to have a peaceful
morning getting out of the house, how to get your kids to eat vegetables, how to stop the tantrum
in three easy steps. God forbid you turn one of those on and try them.
Of course, they don't work. Humans are messy and kids are difficult and we fail.
Right. We do fail. And so there's just if you're on the Internet and everybody's got the cute
picture of, you know, third grade and everybody's really well dressed and everything.
And then meanwhile, you were crying. trying to get that picture because your kid is mad because
your kid's on the spectrum and they hate having their picture taken and the the itchy shirt you
picked for first day is itchy and for whatever reason right everything can feel so heavy and the
pressure to say it's awesome it's really yeah but it's So much of it's not awesome.
So much. There's plenty that's awesome. I'm not saying that there isn't, but so much of it is not
awesome. And we don't tell the truth of that enough because then not only does Satan say you suck,
he says, you're the only one who sucks like this. Yeah. You're the only one. You're a bad mom.
You should be loving. It's so true. The stakes are so high with our kids. We care so much.
So we're so vulnerable. They're so vulnerable. There's so much pressure. And then meanwhile, it's a
really hard job. It's that and that is what creates. It's really hard.
There's a lot of the job that we don't love that isn't, like you said, awesome. And in that gap,
there's a lot of vulnerability to shame. I think that's really helpful to just name that and just
say it out loud like you're saying. Tell the truth about it. What have you heard? You guys have
researched over 700 women. I remember when you first started talking to women about this years ago,
kind of as the seeds of your work was being formed. Again, what are some of the things that...
women are, are sharing with you when you, when you ask them to be honest, when you, when you ask
them these questions and give them a moment to be honest is, you know, what are some of the things
that have stood out to you, um, that surprised you that, um,
maybe didn't surprise you, but just heard more of like, even yourself as moms, like, Oh, other,
other moms are, we're feeling this too. I might have shared this story with you before, but I think
it's really important. We asked. Many, many questions in many different ways.
We have a lot of data that's really interesting. But at the end of the survey, we said, hey,
do you want to tell us anything else? So that's where you find a lot of nuggets. And what we found
in that question that surprised us the most was the number of women who said, your survey made me
cry. Because nobody asks about being a foster mom. Or a step-parent or a grandparent raising kids.
No one asks about my children who've died. No one asks about how hard this is,
how angry I am, how resentful I am. No one asks these questions.
We're not allowed to talk about these things. I feel like I'm the only one in my church whose
kids... are not identifying with their birth gender. And it's too shameful that we're not allowed
to talk about it at my church. I mean, just the stories that came out, the, I feel unseen.
I feel like I'm the only one. And we're not allowed to talk about this, especially at church.
Well, you tapped into something just really powerful again, just again, given that safe place.
I love that you're doing that. I was struck that in this book, you devoted a whole chapter to
resentment. Mm hmm. I thought that was because what an emotion that I think is so real and so many
of us feel but do not wish to talk about. I mean, who wants to go, you know, talk about the
resentments? Tell tell us a little bit about how that came up, how.
You know, what what what do you want women to know who are listening about resentment,
about how common it is and about how to deal with it when we notice it and and what we should be
doing with it? Because I think what we typically do is I shouldn't feel that way. You know, I
shouldn't feel that I'm a bad person. Slap it down. But it's there. It lurks in the corners.
So here's the hilarious thing about resentment. We knew we wanted to study Martha in the story of
Jesus coming to Martha's house. And we were writing it with the idea that it was about
responsibility and the burden of responsibility. And so we had actually done three full drafts of
the chapter when Tara calls me on a Saturday morning and says, you're going to kill me.
I'm like, what? She says, I don't think our chapter is on responsibility.
I think it's on resentment. And I thought, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh,
three chapters. I mean, three drafts that we've already done. But I thought about it for a minute
and then I said, you're exactly right. It's about resentment. But then the next thought was,
okay, if it's about resentment, what is resentment and what are we supposed to do about it?
And that was crazy because I have been in ministry now for 36 years working with college students
and graduate students and faculty. And I realized that I have never heard a sermon.
I've never read a book. I actually, I'm a spiritual director. And I have never thought about what
are you supposed to do about resentment? Partly because I know what to do when we need to forgive
someone. Right. And how key forgiveness is in our spiritual development information. But often when
we feel resentful, the other person didn't necessarily sin. Exactly. And when it comes to your
kids, you know, the kid who won't sleep through the night, who won't poop in the potty,
who won't get out of bed because they're too depressed. Like there are so many things happening
with our kids that we can deeply, deeply resent. But it isn't their fault.
And so then is forgiveness the right? Yeah. It was really challenging.
We really had to figure it out. Yeah. It reminds me when you're saying that a little bit, I think
resentment is a cousin of what the Gottmans talk about is contempt. Yes.
Which is the number one defining factor when you start to feel contempt toward a spouse, which I
think is probably the road. Resentment is a slippery. And that's because, to your point,
Kathy, that this other person may not be doing anything wrong. They may just be being themselves in
a way that gets, you know, so frustrating to you that that resentment builds and then it can become
contempt, which is really destructive. At the same time, resentment is real because these things
are frustrating. So what did you find as you dug into this?
I think it's a really powerful naming. We do have some steps about what to do when you're
resentful. Offer some freedom because resentment is very binding. It's like you're caught when
you're in resentment. And it has a grip on you and it's hard to let go. So we do have some steps
that allow you to release a little bit and feel a little freedom. And we start with that very short
story in Luke, right, that Kathy mentioned, where Martha's making dinner and Mary's sitting down
listening to Jesus with everybody else. And Martha's like, What in the world?
You know, what are you doing? Why are you allowing this? Don't you care? Don't you care?
Somebody needs to get up and help me. And so, you know, people write about Mary in some condemning
ways and that Martha is so wonderful because she does the right thing and she sits at Jesus. And
that's that's not a helpful take. I don't think it's the right take. Yeah. Somebody has to make
dinner. But in the midst of that dinner, she's feeling really resentful and she does this awesome
thing. She goes to Jesus and she says, don't you care?
So that's. Step one in all transformation. You gotta,
if you go to, I mean, you know this from shame, right? That shame isolates.
And all these hard emotions that we feel ashamed of, that's what they want to do. They want to
isolate us. And so the first step in breaking that shame and whatever emotion is causing the shame,
whatever, is to break the isolation. So with Jesus and ideally with someone else, with a trusted
friend. And so or a group or whatever. So that's that's step one.
We can go through all the steps if you want. But don't you care is a really good question.
Like and then make a long list. Don't you care that nobody will pick up their socks that I work all
day and then I have to do that? Don't you care that I'm home alone all day? And then my husband
acts like. he needs to rest but i don't like don't you i mean we could the the list of resentments
as long don't you care that all the other moms seem to be going out for coffee and they never
invite me and like and i feel resentful like i'm busting my hump to try to connect with these women
like So it's just a really good first step. I love that. I love that.
She went straight to Jesus with it. And it brings it into the light. Because also resentment can't,
it's shadowy. It doesn't always feel like resentment. I know in my own life, every once in a while,
I've started to see more and more of its iterations, such as pettiness, a little bit of a ha-ha
-ha. And I'm like... you notice it and then you speak it out loud, you're like, oh,
why did I just... You become more aware of just its little,
many little tentacles. So now I want to know what the second step is.
Well, actually... actually the second step, because the first step is that God always meets us
where we are. And Jesus came to Martha's house, right? So the first step is that Jesus is there.
He's come to our house. Second step that we talk about in our five steps of spiritual
transformation is that we need to have an honest conversation. Jesus invites us to have an honest
conversation with him. But the third step is to trust and obey. And this is my aha from...
chapter, which was, you know how we always hear, we see that Jesus is Martha,
Martha. And we often think about that with Jesus rolling his eyes,
deep sigh, Martha, Martha. Well, if you actually look at scripture,
there are only four people in the Old Testament who God ever calls by the double name.
So Abraham, Moses. Samuel and someone else in Terrell, look it up. And then there's only three
people in the New Testament that ever get called this. And so it's Paul and Martha and now I'm
forgetting the third one too. But the point being, Martha is the only woman.
So in all of scripture, Martha is the only woman who's ever called by the double name.
And in all the cases in the Old Testament, the response, that the person being called is basically,
here I am, your servant is listening. Interesting. And so when we think about resentment and how
Jesus says to each of us, Allison, Allison, Tara, Tara, Kathy,
Kathy. It's tender. Right? The invitation isn't rolling the eyes and exasperation.
It's God calling. It's actually an honoring. Like these are the greats who all got.
called the double name, right? And, oh, Peter, Peter is the New Testament,
I just remembered. And the, yeah, so it's the greats, it's the great men of scripture who God calls
by the double name. And Jesus says this to Martha. And the invitation for her and for us is what
these men said, which is, here I am, your servant is listening. That's beautiful.
It's tender. It's so interesting talking to you. As we're talking about resentment, because it
really is, I always think about the human condition kind of boils down to the wrong ways that we
handle things are shame or blame. If you look back to the garden, right, we either shame ourselves
or blame others. Resentment's that cousin of blame. And that's why it's so insidious and close to
that, because it's destructive of others, our relationship with others. Shame is destructive of our
relationship with ourselves. But it's so interesting because. the the response they're both so
insidious right because you can feel so entitled to your resentments too and especially as a woman
my husband and i often talk a lot about we kind of have this guiding moniker of like make no one
pay including yourself right make no one pay like make make don't harbor those resentments to make
someone else pay and sometimes this is overly simplified i think Maybe that kind of anger comes out
more overtly in men and women. We tend to make ourselves pay. That's the shame,
right? I'm the worst. But that resentment is, I think, at least we have that.
It's there, too. And it's a little bit of that.
energy of like it's other directed and it's not right that we want to harbor right because it's not
that overt anger that kind of gets things out in the open it's that in the shadows harboring that's
so dangerous you know i saw it in the counseling office you know you see it when someone's
harboring that resentment against a spouse or a friend it's just like oh that's a slippery slope
man don't hang on to that but it in that sense it does remind me of shame and its destructiveness
it's just it's It's sent out to others. You know, I think they're both really insidious in their
destructiveness. So it's interesting that we started with shame. And now as we're talking about
resentment, Kathy, that Jesus, both of them, the response is ironically,
because they're so destructive, is tenderness. is I see it. I see it.
Not shame. God didn't shame her for that, right? Which would be piling on more,
you know, now I've just got more to resent. Now I got to resent God because, you know, it's that, I
see it. It's that connection, you know, to quote Kurtz, you know, it's bringing it into the light
and loving presence. And even as friends, like if we share. shame with one another were pretty good
but if what if I shared a resentment with a friend you know would my friend shame me or would my
friend say that's you know kind of that tenderness I'm kind of thinking out out loud here but I'm
struck with the similarities oh they're they're very close and we even write a definition of
resentment because we don't talk about so we don't even know what it is and partially why it's hard
to do it is that it's this tangle of emotions and thoughts and some of the thoughts that are a
little that are unique to to resentment that something is not as it should be and i'm not okay with
it so and and sometimes that's okay like i shouldn't have to do all the laundry necessarily some
right that's true it's not okay sometimes as kathy's saying it's um there is no shouldn't like A
baby shouldn't sleep through the night.
But it's not as I want it to be. And this sense that, like, it's not as I think it's not what I
want. And I'm mad about it, even if I don't want to be mad about it. But I'm mad and I'm sorrowful
and I'm jealous. And it's this whole tangle of thoughts like,
this isn't fair.
Everybody else's baby sleeps. This isn't fair. Other people's husbands pick up their socks.
This isn't fair. This isn't the way I want it. Martha's, this isn't fair that everyone else gets to
sit. So there's some sense of that, this thought. And then it has all these other feelings so that
it is very hard to figure out what's going on. Because if someone says,
well, are you mad? You could say, yeah. Well, are you jealous? Yeah. Like it's got a lot of
emotions in it. Tricky. So true. It's tricky. I mean,
I had to read, well, actually I listened to an audio book to Brene Brown's book on emotions where
she has 40 and she describes them all because I saw that resentment was in there and I'm like,
okay, I have to get a handle on this because it's not out there. You can't even find stuff on it.
I mean, we're Googling, we're trying to figure it all out. And she interestingly puts resentment in
the comparison bucket. Because I do think there's maybe with resentment,
especially because and maybe because we started with a burden of responsibility. I think for those
of us, when we feel responsible, the resentment extra comes right because we're trying to get
things done. We're trying to make sure everyone's OK. And the comparison is often with me.
If I'm doing this. So you're and you're not. If I were you,
I would put my socks in the hamper. If I were you, I would load the dishwasher correctly.
It just can go on and on and on.
Interesting. Yeah. And there's a little there's also it's OK. A couple of things you're saying that
I think are really interesting to tease out. There is a fairness thing at the root of it that may
be valid. It's not fair in that sense of,
but what, you know, life isn't fair. Yes. And also there is a feeling here of, man,
this is my reality and I don't like it. I love that. I love that. And it is,
comparison makes sense, right? Because how do we know what reality is? But by comparing. to someone
else. So it is complicated. And that's where I think even as friends, one of the things I love
about the two of you and the work that you're doing, but also in life is it flows out of your own
friendship, right? You've spent years walking together as moms, being friends together as moms.
And I'm thinking that's where as friends, how can we help validate the thing that is hard without
So validating the resentment, right? Because I do think sometimes we can, if we go too quickly to,
well, life's not fair. Well, then I just feel shut down versus, yeah. And I think this is something
I've had to work through in my own life with some, you know, work, you know, people, maybe, you
know, a colleague who gets ahead. Maybe there is something that's not fair, right? There is a lot
in life that isn't fair, that is valid. And also, and that's kind of what I'm wanting to help us
get like. There's a pivot there when we name it, when we take it to Jesus, when we release,
we honor. There is a kernel of, yeah, that's hard in there. I don't like,
and so we're not shaming ourselves because I do think that's, we either, it's like, it's either got
to be resentment towards someone else or I'm a terrible person. It's like, those are our only two
options, right? Versus you guys are teasing this not out of like, yes,
there's something here that is genuinely hard.
you know, my own experience. And also, and you started to say,
maybe this is getting at the next steps, trust and obey, like, right? Like, what does that mean?
And, you know, it is hard. And what's the next part of that sentence?
We trust that Jesus loves us, that he sees us, gets it.
He's not shaming us, but he sees us. And then we have some steps on what it means to release.
And then we accept Jesus's invitation to join the party.
Because so often our resentment, yeah, that's what he does to Martha.
He says, you can choose this. Come sit down. He's always throwing a party.
So we go back to, we also look at the story of the older brother and the younger brother with the
prodigal father, right? There's a lot of resentment from the older brother. I've done everything
I'm supposed to do. This is not fair. There's a lot of resentment there. And the invitation is come
into the party. Come into the party. I'm not asking you to change your thoughts about this.
You might not get there yet. Or ever. I'm not asking you. I'm saying,
I have a party that you're missing because of this. And so we can talk about the party.
That's so good.
Because the resentment isolates. It makes you mad at everybody and you don't want to be around
them. You're standing outside the party saying, why does he get a fatted calf?
I've done everything I'm supposed to do. I'm not going into a party for him. Are you kidding? Yeah.
But he loses so much. I'm not saying, I get his complaint,
right? I get it. But he missed out that you were with the father the whole time.
The party, you missed the party. So you missed the party.
By hanging on to this. Same with Martha. Yeah, that's a good point because Martha,
I thought about it too. Martha could be happily making dinner, enjoying the surroundings while
she's, you know, there's a, I noticed like myself, I kind of enjoy pottering when there's people
around because I feel like there's a posture of, it wasn't what she was doing.
It was how she was relating to what she was doing that was making her miss out on the party.
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When you think about Martha's culture, which said a woman was not allowed to sit at the foot of the
rabbi,
right? So a woman's job is to do all the hospitality and get it all together and put out the
bedding and make sure there's enough food and make sure guests are welcome. Really,
she's not supposed to be sitting at the foot of the rabbi because in those days they even ate
apart, right, men and women. And so when Jesus says Mary has chosen the better thing,
she's chosen the one thing that's better. Jesus is validating,
right, what Mary has chosen, which is very countercultural across, yeah, really elevating women to
be able to learn and to be part of his. kingdom and part of his followers. And so therefore the
invitation is for Martha to sit down. I mean, she's throwing the party, right? But to sit down at
the party Jesus is throwing. So partly trusting and obeying involves,
although often Tara and I are both hostesses with the mostesses, like we love hosting,
but really Jesus is always the host. And so the invitation.
to join Jesus at whatever party Jesus is throwing in whatever situation.
Oh, that's good. It's very hard, but it's also kind of groundbreaking.
Good. Yes. We call it redeemed hospitality. And luckily, God,
so good. We get a picture of redeemed hospitality when Martha's again hosting Jesus during Holy
Week. And she gets to do it all again. And we get to see exactly what you're saying.
She's still serving. It just feels different. It's a different kind of hospitality.
And it's beautiful. And the resentment just isn't there.
Kathy, I was thinking it'd be really good if you could talk about the release part. Because so
there's like trust that he wants to hear it. He sees you. He gets it. There's this invitation at
the end to accept the invitation to join the party. And in the middle is this release. And Kathy
found. The full serenity prayer, which we are like, how have we not had the whole thing before?
Because the whole thing is the most amazing prayer for when you're feeling resentment.
Can we read it, Allison? Do we have time to read it? Yeah, I'd love that. Yes,
I'd love it. And so maybe a little context is... I think that when we're thinking about spiritual
transformation, which is what we write about in both of our books, you cannot have spiritual
transformation without working around the spiritual disciplines of indifference and detachment.
The idea being that we're 100% attached to God and we loosen our attachments and God orders our
attachments to everything else, including our children and our friends and our spouses.
everything, our careers. And so the serenity prayer is really a detachment prayer.
So do you want me to read it? I'd love it. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot
change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardship as the pathway to
peace. taking as Jesus did the sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it, trusting that you will make all things right if I surrender to your will,
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you forever in the next.
Amen. It's beautiful. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Yeah.
Taking as Jesus did this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it. Because who could have been more resentful than Jesus?
He had every reason to walk around resentful all the time. All the time.
He had every right to be resentful all the time. But somehow he was able to take this sinful world
as it is. It doesn't mean we bless sin.
Or condone sin. It just means that we can take it as it is. And so that we may be reasonably happy
in this life. Reasonably happy. Yeah, there is that. It is that letting go.
And also that first line that helped me to change what I can. Right? So it's not passivity.
It's release what I can't control. And focus on what I can.
Yeah. Yeah, I just think, you know, what we really for young moms,
the mother load of resentment is when your baby won't sleep and how there is nothing you can do to
control that in the first five months because you aren't even able to sleep train them. Right.
But once you sleep train them, you can try. But you cannot control whether it will work.
And we have friends for whom it didn't work and who went to all the experts and it didn't work.
And so, and, you know, especially when you're sleep deprived, it's so easy to get more and more
resentful. And so this idea of, yeah, we live in a broken world and our precious baby who won't
sleep is part of it. And it's not their fault. So is my dyslexic son.
It's hard. Yeah. It's painful. It requires. And I do think there's that.
This is the heart of surrender, which is the prayer. I mean, it is the heart of the gospel, the
process of sanctification, to your point. Like, and it is the shame and resentment. It's like, it's
so tempting. It's such a quick, like, kind of. quick feeling of,
you know, I think we get something from it initially. Um, and it is not the way it is not the way
it is just not the way. And, and, and just so, and I, even as you're saying that it strikes me,
there's a grief that's more. A life-giving, and it's just like, this is hard.
There's a picking up the phone and crying. I don't like this, you know, which is connection versus
that inner simmering that doesn't, it does not lead to life. There's a crying out to God,
you know, all of those things lead to connection.
versus that just hanging on. You know, I always picture it as like a little part of me, like the
Grinch, you know, and the Grinch that wants to just hang on to those little bits of, you know,
that can kind of feel satisfying when, you know, when I would struggle with it a lot in the past,
you know, but, and now just kind of like that deep breath of, you know, just release of it's hard
and there's a, there's a better path through the hard. I just love that you guys have named that.
I think it's powerful and I think it's important and I think it is. As important, you know, we've
talked a lot more about shame, but I do think it's a it's got a similar but different.
There's shame in it, but but we have to name it. We have to bring it into the light.
I think that's there's so much wisdom in that. I want to just just before we close, you know,
for the mom who's listening. who just feels exhausted or overwhelmed.
You've kind of already talked about this, but what is just one word you would give her today?
You're both so wise and so encouraging. What is one small way she might just notice that God is
with her today? What is one small encouragement you might give her today as she's listening?
There's a breath prayer we really like from our study of Hagar. That says God who sees me.
So you breathe in God who sees me and you breathe out. see me now. Because that feeling that I'm
not seeing, that this is too much, that whatever, just like,
see me now. And to trust over time that God is with you, that you are seeing.
We have a tagline, Kathy and I sort of, which is a little, God sees you, we see you,
it's going to be okay. And we just believe that, we've seen that. Not to be trite,
like there's a lot of work we do. for spiritual transformation and it's gonna be okay that's so
that i think that breath prayer sometimes is very helpful for me boy i'm like wow what's something
pithy i mean i think what's most encouraging always is our first two steps which is god meets us
where we are so wherever you are whether it's exhausted um depleted angry,
resentful, worried. Wherever you are, God meets you and doesn't ask that you be in any other space
than exactly where you are. And the second, which we've spent a lot of time talking about,
is in whatever way you can, just to talk back. The key being that God wants to be in relationship
with us. He wants to be part of the nitty-gritty of every part of what we're experiencing.
And the way we build relationship is by having communication two-way, right?
So talking to God about what's real and then listening to God, which really is what we were talking
about with this resentment piece, right? Yeah. About speak, Lord, your servant is listening.
Here I am. I love that. And I love the, I just imagine, you know,
how you, how you even said it, Kathy, Martha, Martha, you know, like Allison, Allison, like, it's
not, it's just such a seeing. It's just a seeing how he sees his Tara,
Tara, Kathy, Kathy. I'm with you. I love that, that framing.
That's powerful. Thank you, lady, so much for all the work that you're doing. Tell my listeners
where they can find you and all the amazing resources you have for moms. The first place I would
say is our website. Welcome, Jesus. Welcome.
which is a beautiful prayer also. And so on that website, you can find articles we've written,
Kathy's curated amazing playlists to go with every chapter of all our books.
You can find links to different prayer practices and other spiritual practices.
So the website's a good place to start. It also will help lead you to our videos that go with each
chapter of our book, especially the new book. And then here is the funny and fun thing.
We are now on TikTok as the gray-haired aunties. And this is Tara's thing.
I'm so not into social media, and so it's just crazy. That we have,
at times, by our standards, gone a little viral on TikTok. And it was my kids who texted the whole
family. And I think my son is like, have you guys seen that mom has gone viral on TikTok?
I was like, what? I don't even know what's happening. So I had to go check TikTok. That's amazing.
But that's where the tagline is coming from. The God sees you, we see you. It's going to be okay. I
love it. I mean, I love having a tiny little bit of a front row seat to the fact that all of this
work and fruitfulness is like even just remembering being in your house,
Kathy, I don't know, 10 years ago, maybe. And you're such a hostess and there's all this food. And
we were all there kind of working on our different projects. There was like four or five of us
women. You just opened your home. And I'd never really had an experience like that. You know, I was
like typing at the table and you guys were over. I remember working on some of your survey stuff.
And I remember when I left that day, I thought that it kind of just took the edge off the
loneliness to be working together. Kind of like we do in college, you know, where you got a
roommate sitting in the room. And just that all of this work that you're doing truly is an
overflow. of your lives, literally, you know, as moms,
as friends, as ministry leaders. It's just really,
really cool to see how this has just continued to overflow out of both of you and out of the lives
that you've shared all these years. So thanks for sharing it with us. Oh,
you're welcome. But Allison, what I remember is in my living room as we're all writing, and I was
very stuck because I've been working on this project of spiritual formation for moms for 26 years,
24 years, starting when my youngest was two. And I remember saying,
should I make a survey? And I thought, oh, this is going to be me just wasting time,
not writing. Let's take a rabbit trail.
Because I think almost everybody sitting in that room has a doctorate in some sort of social
science. All of you. And I remember you, Allison, especially saying, yes, you should.
And get there. And, you know, and because you were in the room and because others in the room, we
made sure I made sure that time that the survey had the single mother,
the stepmother, the foster mother, the divorced mother, the grieving mother. Right. Just even the
experiences of those. in the room was what shaped the original survey.
And as Tara said, with that original survey, because I was serving my colleagues within a varsity,
I got back mail with people writing me saying, I'm crying right now because I can't believe that
you included me as an adoptive mom in the survey.
Yeah, that was an amazing group of women. And I know you guys have had different iterations of the
group, but there was women who'd been divorced, single moms, adoptive moms, step parents,
you know, and, and you're right, it makes it because I have so many grandparents write to me now,
just taking care of, you know, these kids, it's really hard.
There are no resources for grandparents. Um, my husband was a single dad for a minute or two,
you know, for a little while, like there's no resources for single dads. You know what I mean?
There's, there's just, it's, it's, I love that, that you guys included all that.
And again, that came out of your real lived experience of being with so many different kinds of
women. And it's just a, it's just a beautiful. testament to the hospitality and the ways that you
have over the years. I think that leads to the depth and richness of the work that you're doing.
And in that group too, Allison, one of the blessings of it, there were all kinds of moms and all
kinds of women. But we also had all kinds of kids. We had adopted kids,
financial kids, foster kids, step kids. And then we also had kids with mental illness,
kids with substance abuse issues, kids with disabilities, kids rejecting their faith.
you know, kids, kids who couldn't get off social media, kids who wouldn't go on social media.
Everything. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Real. Like what it's really like.
And, and the blessing of not having to hide and just say this, this is reality as it exists and we
can be together in it. Yes. And I think that does to the point of how connection is the antidote to
shame and isolation and resentment. Right. It's like you're with each other. You love each other.
You love each other's kids. And it's like that you can't. It takes away. It strips away that
togetherness, strips away the comparisons and the, you know, your kids got it easier than my kid. I
mean, you bump up against some of that. You got to work it out. But it is.
It is such a powerful way to go through life. We miss you,
Allison. You can come back anytime. I know. I miss you ladies, too. I miss all of you.
It's great to see what's coming out of you both. Thank you for being here. Oh, thank you for having
us. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if
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