episode
133
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Emotions

From Feeling Numb to Meaning-Making — Navigating the 6 Stages of Grief with Renowned Grief Expert David Kessler

Episode Notes

‍How do you move from feeling stuck to finding meaning and healing in your grief?

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In today’s episode, I’m honored to speak with David Kessler, one of the world’s foremost experts on grief and the author who expanded Elisabeth Kübler-Ross’s original five stages of grief by adding a sixth stage: meaning. We explore how common reactions like avoidance, blame, and bargaining are a normal part of the grieving process, and how finding meaning can be a transformative step toward healing. Whether you’re grieving a loss or supporting someone who is, this conversation will help you better understand the continuum of grief and the power of creating meaning.

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Here’s what we cover:‍

* The 5 stages of grief and how different parts of us experience loss

* David’s 6th stage of grief and how it developed out of his own story

* The most important question to ask someone who is grieving

* David’s 7 guidelines for creating meaning after loss

* Why grief is intimately linked to joy

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Resources:

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If you liked this, you’ll love:
  • Episode 98: I Shouldn’t Feel Alone in My Grief—Why Your Grief Matters & the #1 Most Important Support For Those Who Are Grieving

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‍Thanks to our sponsors:

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

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Transcript:

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Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so glad you're here with me this week. Today, we are diving into a topic that touches every single one of us at some point in life. It’s grief, whether you've experienced the loss of a loved one, a job, a relationship, maybe the loss of health, either your own health or the health of a loved one.

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There are so many different ways that we experience loss in this life. It's so important to honor the role of grief as an inescapable part of the human experience. We know that Jesus experienced loss. He felt the pain of grief when he wept at the tomb of his friend, Lazarus, even though he knew he would raise Lazarus from the dead. He knew the end of that story. 

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Jesus didn't bypass the pain of the moment. He fully entered into the sorrow and heartbreak of that moment as he mourned with those who loved Lazarus. He also grieved over the city of Jerusalem. He lamented its brokenness and resistance to God's love.

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In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus also experienced deep anguish. He cried out to God in the face of his impending suffering. Again, Jesus knew what the end of these stories was going to be. He knew that all things work to good for those who love God.

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Yet he entered into these moments of grief, reminding us that grief is not something to avoid or minimize. Instead, it's a sacred part of being human, one that Jesus embraces with us as we're honest and transparent and open about what we feel.

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The holidays, while they bring joy and anticipation and excitement, can also heighten a sense of grief. I wanted to find a way to honor that paradox. Very often, two things can be true. At the very moment that you feel the joy and hope of the holiday season, you can also get hijacked by a painful memory. 

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Maybe a memory of someone you've lost, of a place you've loved and haven't been able to visit for a long time, or maybe even a dream that feels buried or lost. Those feelings of grief or loss that surface sometimes unexpectedly can be hard to figure out how to navigate.

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That's why I wanted to invite today's guest, David Kessler, to talk with us through some practical ways he's found to help you navigate the very normal human experience of grief. David Kessler is one of the world's foremost experts on grief. He's met with the likes of Mother Teresa and worked with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, and he's actually identified a sixth phase to expand upon Kubler-Ross's five stages of grief. He identifies meaning as that sixth stage. 

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He has a brand new workbook out, called Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief Workbook–Tools for Releasing Pain and Remembering with Love. I went through the workbook myself and it's such a great resource. I wanted to share it with you on the podcast today.

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Before we dive into the conversation, I want to take a moment to first touch on the foundational framework of grief created by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, whose work deeply influenced David. These five stages aren't linear, as we'll talk about in today's episode, but they allow for different experiences and emotions that are closely related to the grieving process.

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You may notice yourself feeling any one of these things. It could be so helpful to identify, oh, that's what's going on here. So here's a quick overview of those five stages of grief. Again, they're not linear. They don't go in any particular order, but they are very often linked to a process you may be experiencing as you think about a loss that you're grieving in your life. 

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The first one is denial. This is that initial shock or disbelief after a loss, where you might struggle to accept the reality of what has happened. It's really natural and normal to go through a stage of shock or disbelief. I don't know what to do with this, so I'm going to deny it or avoid it. You might notice this in your body more as avoidance or a refusal to process the events. 

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It's like a part of you knows, okay, I think something really painful or really hard happened here, but other parts of you are saying, no, we're not going there. We're not going to process this. This is really normal. It can be really helpful to name. Okay. Whatever this thing is that I'm going through that's really hard, I can't process it right now. This is a stage of grief that's normal and it's called denial.

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Number two, you might notice yourself feeling unusually angry; the stage of anger hits as the reality of a loss sets in. As you begin to process it internally, you might notice a part of you feeling angry. I can't believe this happened. Whose fault is this? I want to blame somebody.

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I want to believe that someone else could have prevented this. This anger might be directed at someone else, where you are so angry that someone else let this happen. You're looking for someone to blame, but it can also be directed at yourself. You might be so angry with yourself, either that you feel the way you feel or you might blame yourself for what happened. 

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Thirdly, you might be angry at God and you can't believe God let this painful thing happen. Again, anger is such a normal and necessary part of the grieving process. It's those frozen parts of you starting to wake up.

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Initially, maybe you felt that denial. You've been avoiding the painful feelings that are associated with grief. Anger is sometimes one of the ways those parts of us start to wake up and break through to the surface. They start looking for someone to blame–either yourself, God, or someone else. If you can notice that and give yourself space to feel that anger, it can really help you move through those emotions and get to the other side. 

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Number three, you might notice yourself bargaining. This is where your parts of you are trying to regain control. Those painful emotions are starting to show up, and another part of you is starting to bargain with God. 

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God if I do this, would you do this? Or, if only I had done this, maybe you would have done this. You're trying to find a logic to your grief when you're bargaining, when so often there isn't a logic to the pain that you feel. Again, these are other parts of you that are beginning to wake up. 

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They're beginning to try to make sense of what happened. They think if you can bargain with God or with other people, or even with yourself, if I can be a better person, maybe I can avoid something like this in the future. Again, this is a necessary part of the process. You need to let yourself move through this bargaining, even as you're aware that this is one part of the overall grieving process.

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The fourth stage is depression. This is where you begin to feel the sadness and the sorrow and the emotional pain of what you've experienced. Again, this is a necessary part of the grieving process. It can feel overwhelming. The anger and the denial and the bargaining are there in many ways, trying to protect you from feeling this deep sadness, this deep sorrow inside your soul. 

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And yet you won't be able to move through the grieving process if you don't also honor the sadness. We talked a little bit in today's episode about how you can honor the sadness with the help of structure and with the help of gentle boundaries so that sadness can be felt without completely taking you over.

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Then number five, you move into acceptance. Acceptance doesn't mean that you're okay with what happened. Instead, it means that all of these parts of you, the parts of you that are angry, the parts of you that want to take control through bargaining, the parts of you that are avoiding through denial, and the parts of you that are so sad, reach a sort of truce.

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They reach a sort of harmony around the table of your soul. You realize that all of those parts of you are valuable and that you're also finding your way through the pain, finding a way to move forward. That is where this beautiful sixth stage that David has identified, the stage of meaning, can really come into focus.

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David describes this work of finding meaning so beautifully. It doesn't replace those other stages; it begins to point to a new way forward that both honors your loss and also honors a new reality. 

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This holiday season, I pray you'll find a way to honor each of these parts of you in partnership with God's spirit. With all that said, I'm so thrilled to bring you my conversation with David Kessler. 

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David Kessler is one of the world's foremost experts on grief and loss. He has authored multiple influential books on grief, including On Grief and Grieving and Life Lessons, both of which he co-authored with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. He also wrote The Needs of the Dying, a book praised by Mother Teresa.

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His book, Finding Meaning, is an incredible exploration of what David identifies as the sixth stage of grief. He recently released his highly anticipated workbook, which provides tools for releasing pain and remembering with love. This workbook is a big hit and a beautiful resource.

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David has such an incredible story. He has really lived what he teaches. I'm thrilled to bring you my conversation with David Kessler.

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***

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Alison Cook: This is such a timely topic with so much going on in our world, David. Thank you so much for being here to talk with us about grief and about finding meaning. 

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David: Absolutely. I'm so excited to be with you, so thank you for having me.

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Alison Cook: Your work on grief is so groundbreaking and I really want to get into the sixth phase that you've identified. I'm curious if you'd be willing to share with my listeners, what drew you to this work? How does it grow out of your own personal experiences?

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David: I will tell you, I had a challenging childhood with lots of dysfunction. I hold my parents very dear in my heart. They were wounded. They didn't know a way and didn't have the resources we do today to heal. I learned early on that loss takes many forms.

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You can feel the loss of safety. You can feel even the loss of your childhood. Then when I was 13, my mother was very sick and went into a hospital hours away. When she was dying, we were at the hotel across the street, and a fire broke out. People started yelling, fire! They evacuated. 

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We all ran out and on the 18th floor, there were flames coming out of the hotel. The fire trucks pulled up. I was finding it a little exciting at this point because I had been this bored teenager, and then all of a sudden shooting began.

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Alison Cook: Oh my.

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David: This wasn't just a fire, but also there was an active shooter. It went on for hours. It was one of the first mass shootings in the US. So my father got us out, we went across back to the hotel, back to the hospital, and in a couple of days, my mother died. 

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I wasn't allowed to be with her. She was in the ICU. I knew at such a young age, that there was a better way. The only advice I got was from a stranger in the staircase who said, “be strong”, which can feel like, “don't have feelings and take care of everyone else”. 

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The grief was never really mentioned again. I grew up down south, so I dealt with hurricanes and loss and the trauma of these events. I thought I was broken for life. It wasn't until I got to Community College that I realized, oh my gosh. There's a language for this.

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I took a class and studied this woman, Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, who had written about these stages: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Little did I know, I would go on to work with her and learn from her and write two books with her. I always hear her whispering in my ear, “tell them the stages aren't linear”.

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There's no one right way to do grief. There's no one right way to do this. Grief is an organic process. I always say, we come from a long line of dead people. All our ancestors have died. We know how to do this. It's our society that tells us often we're doing it wrong. So that's what initially got me into my work.

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Alison Cook: I love that. Thank you so much for giving us that backdrop. How did you begin to develop this idea for the sixth stage? I love your caveat. I’ve never met Elisabeth, but I find myself also wanting to give that caveat every time I talk about the five stages.

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David: Good, good.

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Alison Cook: I love that you said that. Somehow you begin to recognize this need for a sixth, also not linear, but another really important piece of the grieving process. Tell us a little bit about how that began to emerge.

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David: I have had this amazing, tremendous career of being of service to others and helping, and it has been my privilege. I got to be with Mother Teresa and spend time with her in her home in Calcutta for the dying and destitute. I've worked in a hospital system and was privileged to not only work in and oversee the end of life care and hospice, but also the clergy there and to work with them and see how our faith comes into this and how we can live our lives fully.

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Even with the tragedies we had, I was to be of service and help others, and I did that for decades. I thought my personal grief was behind me. It wasn't until out of the blue, my younger son, at 21 years old, died unexpectedly…first of all, I was on the floor. I did not think I would get up.

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I had to take my own medicine and go to a grief counselor and go to a grief group and sit in a group with a baseball cap and a group of bereaved parents. My books were on a table five feet away and I couldn't tell anyone that was me. I couldn't be the grief expert. I had to be the father that buried a child. 

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I also saw myself going through the process. Denial. Yep. Oh, I can't believe my son is gone. I was so angry at life, angry at my son, angry at God. Wait, I've tried to be of service and help people. Why me? Why would you do that? I had to really go there. Of course, with time, I eventually realized, number one, I knew my God was big enough to handle my anger. 

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I knew that I had seen people go through all these different places in their grief and that there was life on the other end for them. I wasn't sure how I would find it. I saw myself going through depression and bargaining, the guilt, and then I began to wrestle with the fact that I'm going to have to accept this someday. 

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That idea of accepting it was not enough. I thought, there has to be more. I remember that I had read Viktor Frankl's work on meaning, and I didn't quite understand how meaning and grief played together, because so many times people would trip over, there's no meaning in a horrible death, there's no meaning in all these tragedies we have in our lives, in breakup, divorce, betrayal, tragedy, murder, all these horrible things that happen to us.

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What I realized is that meaning isn't in the horrible event–meaning is in us. It's what we do later, what we do after. It didn't take away my pain, but it gave me a cushion. I was so honored that the Elisabeth Kubler-Ross family gave me permission to add a sixth stage to her iconic stages. Because I think we're a generation that wants more–we’re wanting meaning.

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Alison Cook: That is powerful. The meaning is not in the horrible set of circumstances. It's in what you do on the other side of that horrible event. That's so powerful. It strikes me, especially for people of faith. There's a ditch on both sides of the road of meaning. If you too quickly go to, “God has a reason for it”. That's not honoring the grief.

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But the other side of it is, there's no meaning whatsoever. That can feel very empty and not enough. I love how you've articulated that for us. That's beautiful.

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David: I think we have to hold the divine and we have to hold the human experience.

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Alison Cook: Yes.

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David: An amazing person called me two months in, maybe, and said, how are you doing today? I said, I am so angry! She heard and she said to me, I hear the anger. I hear the anger. She said, would you like to talk about the spiritual aspects of this or the human aspect? I said,
“Both, and start with the human”. 

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So she listened to me in my anger. She said to me, I'm surprised you're not breaking furniture. I thought, oh my gosh, she sees me. She sees that I could take my couch, my sofa, and snap it in half. She saw my anger and she heard me. I always say, anger is pain's bodyguard. She helped me release that anger in a safe way, in a safe place. 

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After she listened so lovingly and patiently, she said, are you ready to talk about the spiritual? I said, Yes. She goes, your son, David, can't die. That was his body, but he can't die. He's eternal. Sometimes, we can almost try to bypass the human experience and go right to the spiritual and go, oh, he's always with you. He's in a better place. 

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And we're feeling like I know that, but I want him here with me.

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Alison Cook: Yes, that's so powerful. I love that she asked you that question. That's such a powerful thing for listeners to hear. Do you want to be human right now? Do you want to be human? Or do you want the spiritual? It might be a different answer on different days. 

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David: Absolutely. If I meet with my minister, I might be looking for the spiritual. That might be the context I'm looking for. Other times, we're in our human experience.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. That's so powerful. What would you say, David, for people who feel stuck in an earlier stage? Maybe they can't come out of the anger, the denial, to even get to contemplating meaning. What would you say to those folks?

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David: Two things. First of all, there is a reason for that. Maybe you're not supported in your life. Maybe it's not safe enough. There are people around us who say, get over it, move on. Grief takes many forms. It can be the loss of a job. It can be a relationship loss. It can be a pet loss. 

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There are so many different losses in our life, but people can easily say, get over it. It's often not like a cold or a flu that we recover from. We have to walk through it, and you might not be supported enough.

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I have online groups. We have 26 different groups because grief is a unique time. Maybe your best friend, maybe your spouse, maybe your sister, your brother, that person who gets you, who is always there for you, doesn't understand this one.

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Grief is a time when family and friends can feel like strangers, and strangers can become family and friends. So if our family doesn't get it, we need to go outside. We need to go to a local group or an online group. We need that. We can get stuck if we don't have that support, that community. 

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The other thing is, it's so important to understand what stuck means. For example, this side of the continuum is stuck. On the other end over here is chaos–it’s too much change. We were thrown into too much change with this loss, and we bounce all the way into stuck because stuck can feel safe.

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Alison Cook: What you're saying reminds me that stuck might be where you need to be for that moment. In the IFS model that we talk about sometimes on the podcast, that part of you is there for a reason, protecting you.

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David: That part might be saying, no more change. We're saying, walk forward into your new life. And that part might be saying, no more change. I've had it. We live in a grief illiterate world. 

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It's interesting. I have a grief certificate program where we train therapists and clergy, and so many coaches and even amazing clergy who are in our programs will say, I got trained on how to visit the sick. I got trained on how to do the funeral. No one taught me how to do the long walk with someone through their grief.

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Alison Cook: That is so true. We live in a grief illiterate world. To your point, grief is not the problem. The problem is living in a culture that doesn't create spaces for it. So tell me a little bit more about this workbook that you have out now, David. It really focuses on the meaning part.

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What are some of the practical ways you walk someone through this journey of grief, which includes this piece of creating meaning? Again, not necessarily finding meaning in something tragic, but finding meaning in that journey. How do you begin to walk people through that?

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David: I almost feel like if I could go back and change the title, I might, because in a lot of ways, the workbook is really about excavating the pain. When you excavate the pain, the meaning gets revealed, but we have to go through the pain. 

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By the way, you can start with the workbook–you don't have to go back to any of the other books. It starts with telling our stories and realizing there's a way we tell our stories. But then I have the feelings wheel, and here's the thing: we can't heal what we don't feel. And we often think we have three feelings. I'm happy, mad, or sad. That's it. 

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So people get to choose from all these feelings to see and to understand, number one, we have judgment on our feelings. I do a lot of work there in uncovering the judgment. When I say to people, you have judgment on your feelings or grief, they're like, no, I don't. 

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But they'll go, I'm not crying enough. I'm crying too much. Those are actually judgments. They'll go, I should be further along. Oooh, that's a judgment. We're the first generation that has the luxury of feelings on feelings. We'll go, I'm angry, but anger is inappropriate. I'm sad, but there are worse things in the world. We have all these feelings that we sort of half-feel and throw behind us. 

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People say to me, if I start crying, I'll never stop. I'll say, oh dear one, I've sat with thousands of people. Everyone stops crying. We might cry again, but everyone stops crying. These feelings want to be felt. Feelings are not facts. They're information. They want to be felt. And then we go to the next feeling.

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One of the tricks our mind plays with us that's so cruel, is our mind will make us feel like this feeling is final. You're devastated, and that's the rest of your life. You're broken hearted forever. You're lonely, always. Those may not be true.

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Alison Cook: Do you think, David, that community or groups are essential for that kind of grief work, that feeling the feelings part? Or can somebody do that in the privacy of their own journal, in the privacy of their own prayer life? I'm curious about that, because I also think sometimes people are nervous about exposing raw feelings to other people.

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David: That's one of my purposes in doing this. Because like I said, I wanted it to feel like we're at your kitchen table. I have an amazing co-author on this book. It's the person who sits down with it. They get to put their thoughts, their feelings, their heartbreak down on paper. They get to experience it, and they get to witness their own grief and see their pain. It helps us feel less alone.

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Alison Cook: I love that. I love that. This could actually be one of your companions, this place that you've created where there's some structure to it. Somebody who knows what they're doing laid this out for me, and can help those parts of you that are nervously thinking, if I go there, I never will come back. No, I can do two pages today.

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David: My goodness, there are some big open ended questions in the workbook, but there are also checklists. You could sit down in two minutes and go, oh, I didn't realize that. There's a place you could mark, do I have shame in my grief? There are some really easy exercises for someone who's afraid to open that book.

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Alison, here's one of the challenges. Someone said to me, I bought the workbook, but I'm not ready to open it. I said, okay, I'm curious. Can you tell me more about that? She said, yes, I don't want to open the pain. I said to her, oh, if only you could skip the pain by not opening the book. 

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If only you could put that workbook in the closet, on a shelf with your pain. But the pain is not in the workbook. It's in you. The workbook is a way to move the pain from you

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Alison Cook: That's so well stated. We treat it like a little box. Once we begin to do that, open the pain in ourselves through these questions, through excavating the pain, what's the alchemy? How does that process work? How might meaning begin to flow from that, in your experience? 

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Is it something that begins to take shape through looking at the pain? Tell me a little bit about what it begins to open us up to.

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David: There are a few guidelines in there to help us think about this. There are seven of them. One, meaning is relative and personal. Two, meaning takes time. You may not find it for months or years after a loss. Three, meaning doesn't require understanding. It isn't necessary to understand why someone died in order to find the meaning. 

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So many times we get stuck in the why. I need a why to find my healing, to move through this grief. There are so many times in life where there isn't a why. Many times we end up getting a why. Maybe the doctor tells us why they died, what happened to their body. I tell people, even when you get a why, it's not a satisfying why. So we don't need the why to find the meaning. 

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Four, even when you do find your meaning, it won't be worth the cost. We'd always rather have our loved one back. I could become the greatest bestseller of all time, and I'd rather have my son.

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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David: Five, and this is an important one, your loss is not a test, a lesson, something to handle, a gift, or a blessing. Loss is what happens in life. Meaning is what you make happen after the loss. Six, only you can find your own meaning. Seven, meaningful connections will heal painful memories.

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I think people can easily get lost in that fifth one. It's not a lesson. It's not a blessing. So many times, people say to me, David, my family is cursed. I say, oh my gosh, tell me why. Oh, the grandparents have all died, there was a cousin, we've had so many deaths. I say, do you know what the death rate is in your family compared to others?

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Oh, I'm sure we're high. What is the death rate in families? I said, 100%. On planet Earth, it has been designed, as far as I can see, that everyone who lives, dies someday. When we can recognize that that's the mystery and the way this world is set up, and be present in that and not fight with the reality, we can find a different life.

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Alison Cook: It's a paradox, isn't it?

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David: It is a paradox.

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Alison Cook: There's life in making peace with the reality of death. What a paradox.

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David: It's a strange thing. I live in a really sweet, cute little neighborhood. I ran into someone that I hadn't seen in a while. We worked together 30 years ago and she lives fairly close. She goes, oh, I've been following your work over the years and your career and all that. She goes, I'd like to be friends, but it would be too depressing. I said to her, that's okay. But you know, I don't have a depressed life. I have a really full life. 

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Here's where it's hard to understand. Most of my work now is online. But back in the day, when I would go to a hotel meeting room that had a few hundred people, I'd be teaching. Down the hall would be the realtors. Around the corner would be the nurses, then there'd be the Rotary Club. 

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After the day was over, the staff would say, hey, what were you teaching? I'd go, oh, why do you ask? They'd go, because your group was laughing the most. They'd go, wait a minute, I don't understand, what were you teaching? I'd go, grief. Now they're really confused. 

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Here's what people don't understand. Everyone in that room who had been through loss is confused. Many were helpers learning how to continue to help people. They absolutely had to go deeper into their pain. But what we don't realize is their bandwidth was also expanded for joy.

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They laughed a little harder. We understand now, the most precious thing we have is our time. And when we hear this idea of meaning, we think, oh, is it a charity I'm supposed to start? What am I supposed to do? I tell people, meaning can be in those big events, but meaning is also in the small moments. This is one, we have to name it. This is a meaningful moment.

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Someone might be listening that needs to hear this, or have someone they know that needs to hear this, to name those moments of meaning.

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Alison Cook: I love that. I feel that. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for what you've done here. I have two questions for you, David, that I like to ask all my guests. The first one is, if you could go back and say something to that young boy in the hotel room, what would you want him to know now?

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David: You're going to be okay. You're going to get through this. You're going to be okay.

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Alison Cook: I love that. What's bringing out the best of you right now?

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David: Walking with people through these tough times to help them find the light again. 

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Alison Cook: Where can we find more about your work, the workbook, and all that you're doing to help people journey through grief?

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David: If you go to grief.com, you can find information on the workbook, all my books, as well as my Tender Hearts online grief program, the grief educator certificate program, and lots of free resources.

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Alison Cook: It's really amazing. You're shining your light for so many people in, as you said, a world that doesn't always honor the genuineness of this process. It's something we all have to do on some level. It's normal. It doesn't mean it's easy, but I appreciate all that you're doing to help so many people. I appreciate your time coming on here today.

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David: Thank you. Thank you so much.

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